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FIVE DAYS DHBATE . 

BETWEEN 

ELDER JAMES B. HARDY, 

OF THE 

REGULAR BAPTISTS, 



AND / 

^ REV. ISHAM E. WALLACE, 



OF THE 



MISSIONARY BAPTISTS, 

UPON CHURCH IDENTITY. 'v-TTi^ 

,• , •'■•■v.^-•.K,UH^'*^-V 
" If the truth make you free, ye shall he free ^eed." ■ v/ASHi^^'^Si 



S 



G. Beebe & Sox, Printers, Mlddletowx, Grange Co., N. Y. 

1881. 



^ 



THE UBl^^^l 
or COKOEMtj 

WAIBIIIOTOHJ 



i'i 



^nv^ 



\\3' 



Entered according to Act of Congress, in the year 18S0, by 

JAMES B. HAEDY, 

In the Office of the Librarian of Congress, at Washington. 



P E E F A C E . 

It is a well-known fact that there are two bodies of Baptists in this 
country, one known by the appellation of Old School, or Regular, and the 
other styled the United, or Missionary Baptists, both claiming to be the 
legal descendants of the Apostles ; and since the contention has of late 
become of considerable moment, it was agreed between the two contend- 
ing parties that they should meet in discussion, and that a truthful report 
of it should be made and published. Accordingly, the Missionaries made 
choice of Rev. I. E. Wallace, of Marshall County, Kentucky, and Eld. 
Jas. B. Hardy, of Crittenden County, Kentucky, was selected to represent 
the Regular Baptists. The Debatants met at Mount Moriah Church, in 
Marshall County, Kentucky, on Monday, July 26th, 1880, and the following 
pages contain an account of what there took place. 



IKTEODUOTION. 

Elder Fulkerson, of Illinois, called the meeting to order and stated 
briefly the object of the proposed debate. 
Moderators having been chosen, Rev. Mr. Wallace said : 
" I w^ould say to the brethren that I am indorsed by my Association. 
My brethren indorse me anywhere, and I presume that will be satisfacto- 
ry. I will now state the proposition to be discussed : 

"The Regular Baptists are the church of Christ, and have come down 
by regular succession from the days of the Apostles to the present time, 
and do now maintain the doctrine and practice of the ancient Baptists. 
" Of this proposition Elder Hardy affirms and I deny." 
The rules governing the debate were then read, and prayer offered. 
Mount Mokiah, Ky., July 26, 1880. 



THE DEBATE. 



ELDEE HARDY SAID: 

Gentlej*,ien Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : The ob- 
ject of our meeting here to-day is to discuss the important 
question that you have heard stated; and in opening the dis- 
cussion I wish to say that I only hope to vindicate the truth as 
it is in Jesus Christ. In the first place, I want to speak of the 
setting up of the church of the Lord Jesus Christ upon earth; 
after which I will speak of the relation of that kingdom to 
the doctrine and the sentiments which the people termed Eeg- 
ular Baptists profess to believe. I shall set up the truth as 
we profess to believe it, and our system, of which we are not 
ashamed ; and I shall then trace that people from the days 
of the Apostles down to the present time, as having always 
believed the same thing. 

I shall first read from Daniel ii. 44: ''And in the days of 
these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which 
shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left 
to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all 
these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.'' Let me remark 
here that this quotation itself is enough to prove that the or- 
ganization which Christ set up has stood from that time to 
this, because he says " it shall stand forever." And we find 
in the same chai^ter we make this quotation from, that there 



6 DEBATE ON 

were four kingdoms brought to view, and, all these kingdoms 
were earthly kingdoms, except the one kingdom that Christ 
set up, of which he says, " In the days of these kings shall 
the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be de- 
stroyed." And I take the position here that these earthly 
kingdoms did continue until Christ's kingdom was set up on 
earth. 

I will refer you next to Matthew xvi. IS : ''And I say unto 
thee that thou art Peter ; and upon this rock I will build my 
church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." 
This is the Savior himself speaking, it will be remembered, 
and he says, " Upon this rock I will build my church, and the 
gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Now let me ask 
the question right here. Is Jesus going to build his church by 
his own power, or is it to be done by some other power ? We 
take it for granted that this saying of Jesus is the truth when 
he says, " Upon this rock I will build my church, and the 
gates of hell shall not prevail against it." 

I will next call your attention to John xviii. 36 : " Jesus an- 
swered, My kingdom is not of this world : if my kingdom 
were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I 
should not be delivered to the Jews : but now is my kingdom 
not from hence." Now, mark the expression, " My kingdom 
is not of this world." Consequently we take the position that 
this kingdom which Jesus set up is not of this world, and that 
the material which composes this church, Jesus says, is not 
of this world. Therefore he says, " I have chosen you out of 
the world." I take the position that this church which Christ 
set up is not of the world j and if there is a kingdom set up 
by the intervention of man, I tell you it is not the church of 
the Lord Jesus Christ. He said that his church is not of the 



CHUECH IDENTITY. . 7 

world ; and consequently it does not take the wealth of the 
world to support it 5 and where a church is set up and sup- 
ported by the wealth of the world, it is not the church of the 
Lord Jesus Christ. 

Again, I will refer you to Luke i. 44: "And he shall reign 
over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there 
shall be no end.'' Also Luke xii. 32, where he speaks of the 
characteristics that will compose this church which he says he 
is going to build up. " Fear not, little flock, for it is your 
Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." This 
brings to view the kingdom that he refers to. Jesus says, in 
speaking to his church, "Fear not, little flock." You will 
probably hear at the outset, as an argument, on the other side 
of this debate, that their church is of great numbers, and 
that, consequently, they are certainly right in their doctrines, 
and I read this quotation simply to show you that Christ in 
speaking to his people said to them, " Fear not, little flock." 

In Isaiah ix. 6, we are shown the character we profess to 
worshii:). "'.d'or unto us a child is born, unto us a son is giv- 
en, and the government shall be upon his shoulder j and his 
name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, 
The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." This is the 
Lord Jesus Christ that we profess to worship. He is often 
called "Wonderful," and will always be, for his kingdom shall 
stand forever. 

Kow I will refer you, in this same line of illustration, to 
James i. 17 : " Every good gift and every perfect gift is from 
above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom 
is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." He is an un- 
changeable God, and this is the character we worship. Also 
see Isaiah xlvi. 9, 10 : " Eemember the former things of old ; 



o DEBATE ON 

for I am God, and there is none else ; I am God, and there is 
none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from 
ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying. My 
counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure/' And that 
is the kind of God we worship 5 a God that changes not j that 
says his counsel shall stand, and that he will do all his pleas- 
ure. Then, I take the position that the Lord Jesus Qhrist 
will perform all his work without any assistance from those 
of the world. 

Again, I refer you to Isaiah xl. 10,* which may be read at 
leisure, and which time will not now allow me to turn to. 

So we have now set forth the kingdom that it is the pur- 
pose of the Lord to set up, and I have told you something in 
regard to the character of the God that we profess to wor- 
ship — a great and supreme Euler over this kingdom that has 
been brought to view. Xow I wish to remark here, that we 
as a people believe in the doctrine of Election, the doctrine of 
Predestination, and so on. I am going to take that position 
here, and I do not want to depart from the principles that the 
Eegular Baptists profess. We profess to stand on the doc- 
trine of Election. I take the position here that the Bible 
teaches eternal and unconditional election ; that it is personal, 
eternal, and unconditional. !N^ow, have the Baptists as a 
people believed that from the days of the Apostles down to 
the ipresent time? And that is the question here. I say dis- 
tinctly that they have. Eeferring to Deuteronomy xxxii. 0, 
we find that it is said, " For the Lord's portion is his people j 
Jacob is the lot of his inheritance." Also, referring to 1st 
Samuel xii. 22, he says, " For the Lord will not forsake his 
people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the 
Lord to make you his people." Xow let me tell you here, that 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 9 

if you are of the people of God to-day, it is not due to your 
own efforts, but it is because God hath chosen you 5 else why 
are you called the people of God? " Because it hath pleased 
the Lord to make you his people." I say it is not because 
you make yourself so; it is not because you have done some- 
thing in that great work of yourself 5 but you are so because 
it hath pleased God to make you so. That is the reason why. 
Again, in Psalm Ixv. 4, it is said, " Blessed is the man whom 
thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he 
may dwell in thy courts : we shall be satisfied with the good- 
ness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." ]^ow, here is a 
man whom God has chosen, and the Bible says that he is 
blessed; blessed is the man that is the choice of God. That 
is the character that he has chosen. God gives him the power 
to approach him; and when you see people approaching the 
Lord Jesus Christ you may take it for granted they do so by 
the power of the grace of God, and not by any power of their 
own. I refer you now to Deuteronomy vii. 6: " For thou art 
a holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath 
chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all peo- 
ple that are upon the face of the earth." (7) "The Lord did 
not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were 
more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of 
all people." So it seems the Lord did not set his love upon 
you, nor choose you, because you are more than any other 
people, but because you are the fewest of people. Then, 
again, see Isaiah xlv. 4: " For Jacob my servant's sake, and 
Israel mine elect, 1 have even called thee by thy name. I 
have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me." Also, 
again in Isaiah, Ixv. 9 : "And I will bring forth a seed out of 
Jacob, and oat of Judah an inheritor of my mountains ; and 



10 DEBATE OX 

mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there." 
Again, Ephesians i. 2-4 : "Grace be to you, and peace, from 
God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.*' (3) "Bles- 
sed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who 
hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly i^laces 
in Christ,'' (4) "According as he hath chosen us in him before 
the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and with- 
out blame before him in love.'" Does that mean that we were 
chosen in Christ "before the foundation of the world," or that 
he chose us when we approached him? It says here posi- 
tively, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the 
foundation of the world," speaking of those who had been 
blessed by the Lord Jesus Christ " with all spiritual blessings 
in heavenly places in Christ." Then, again, in 1st Peter i. 1: 
"Peter, an Apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered 
throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithyuia," 
(2) "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, 
through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience and sprink- 
ling of the blood of Jesus Christ: grace unto you, and peace, 
be multiplied." . Is ow here it is spoken of again as the elect 
of God, and of that passage there can be no doubt. Then 
see 2d Timothy ii. 10 : " Therefore I endure all things for the 
elect's sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is 
in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." 

I think I have now produced enough testimony on the sub- 
ject of the doctrine of Election to prove to you that God 
chose his people " before the foundation of the world." I 
want now to speak in regard to the atonement, and I am go- 
ing to take the position that the atonement that Christ made 
did not extend to the entire race of men, but that that atone- 
ment was limited : that the atonement that Christ made was 



CHURCH IDExXTITY. U 

made for liis people, and it did not extend to any other race 
of men -, and in support of that position I will quote first 
from Isaiah lii. 3 : " For thus saith the Lord, Ye have sold 
yourselves for naught, and ye shall be redeemed without 
money." Here is the positive statement made in the scrip- 
tures, that redemption shall be made without i^rice ; and it is 
very clear that the matter of redemption is not left with us, 
as to whether we will be redeemed. But the positive decla- 
ration is made that we have sold ourselves '' for naught," and 
that we " shall be redeemed without money." *But these 
Missionaries tell us now that it requires money, that money 
must be had for the purposes of redemption. All that is 
necessary is for them to refer to that passage, and several 
others that I shall quote. Isaiah liii. 5-8 : (5) " But he was 
wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our in- 
iquities : the chastisement of our peace was upon him ; and 
with his strijoes we are healed." (6) ''All we like sheep have 
gone astray 5 we have turned every one to his own way ,• and 
the Lord hath laid on him the iniquities of us all." (7) " He 
was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his 
mouth : he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a 
sheej) before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his 
mouth." (8) " He was taken from prison and from judgment: 
and who shall declare his generation ? for he was cut off out 
of the land of the living : for the transgression of my people 
was he stricken." That is what Isaiah says about it, and I 
am disposed to believe it. It was for the transgressions of 
the people of God. Xow I refer you to Luke i. 6S : '' Blessed 
be the Lord God of Israel ; for he hath visited and redeemed 
his people." From that I take the position that the work is 
done, because the Bible says that he has '' visited and re- 



12 DEBATE ON 

deemed his people." I refer you then to Eomaiis y. 8-10 ; 
(8) " But God commendeth his love towards us, in that while 
we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (9) '^ Much more 
then, being now justified by bis blood, we shall be saved from 
wrath through him." (10) '' For if when we were enemies, 
we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son ; much 
more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Again, 
I refer you to Eevelation v. 9 : "And they sung a new song, 
saying. Thou art worthy to take the book, and open the seals 
thereof; for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by 
thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and 
nation." Xow if this is an atonement that will extend to the 
entire race of men, where was the necessity for such an ex- 
pression as we find in this text ? Why does he not say that 
he icill redeem every nation, kindred and people, in place of 
saying that he lias redeemed every nation, kindred and 
tongue ? It does not say that he will redeem the balance of 
us by our own labors, but it says positively that he has " re- 
deemed us to God." John x. 15, 16 : (15) "As the Father 
knoweth me, even so know I the Father ; and I lay down my 
life for the sheep." ^N'ow mark the expression : " I lay down 
my life for the sheep." Positively " for the sheep." (16) "And 
other sheep I have which are not of this fold : them also I 
must bring, and they shall hear my voice ; and there shall be 
one fold, and one Shepherd." It says distinctly, " they s/<a?Z." 
It seems to me, however, that I have produced enough testi- 
mony on this portion of the subject to convince all candid 
minds, and I shall now pass on to other points. 

I shall now say a little on the subject of salvation. I take 
the position of the Eegular Baptists on this subject here to- 
day ; and if it is not their doctrine its I expound it, I want 



CHU.RCH IDENTITY. 13 

them to say so, I stand bere representing the Eegular Bap- 
tists, and I propose to set forth the doctrine that they profess 
and believe. And I take the position first on this subject, 
that the eternal salvation of the sinner is unconditional upon 
the part of the sinner in every sense of the word, from begin- 
ning to 'end ; and if I do not prove that assertion by the 
Bible, and if my brother can get up here and show that sal- 
vation is conditional, and dependent upon a certain work to 
be performed by the sinner, I want him to prove it by the 
Bible alone, which I am confident he cannot do. In the first 
plice I will turn to Matthew i. 21, and I wish this congrega- 
tion to observe strictly and carry in their minds the line of 
proof I shall adduce in support of my position. 

•'And she shall bring forth a sou, and thou shalt call his 
name Jesus : for he shall save his people from their sins." 

It would seem from that passage very clear that the Lord 
Jesus Christ had a people in the world that were not saved. 
I presume that will not be disputed. You are bound to take 
the position that this quotation from the scripture does 
prove conclusively that the Lord* had a distinct people that 
belonged to him, or you are bound to take the position that 
all the race of man belongs to him. '' He shall save his peo- 
ple " are the words, and it is clear a distinct people was 
meant, and that their salvation was to be entirely uncondi- 
tional. 

Then I refer you to Luke xix. 10 : '' For the Son of man is 
-come to seek and to save that which was lost." What did he 
come to do? Does this passage show that the Lord Jesus 
Christ came merely to save those that seek him? Does the 
text I have quoted say so ? No; but it says he came ''to 
.seek and to save that which was lost." Let me tell vou that 



14 DEBATE ON » 

accordiug to the testimony of Luke the see'king was done by 
the Lord Jesus Christ, as the saving was done. He came to 
seek and to save, and he will in his own good time do both. 

Again, in 1st Timothy i. 15 5 "This is a faithful saying, and 
worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the 
world to save sinners." Xow if he came into the world to 
save sinners, I want to know whether he did it. I want my 
brother who is on the other side of this debate to be very 
particular when he comes to speak to answer upon this point. 
The testimony of the Bible is that " Jesus came into the 
world to save sinners." That is the testimony of Paul. XolT 
if Christ came into the world to save sinners, did he do it f 
If he did not do it, I want to know why he didn't do it; and 
if he did do it, I want my opponent here to tell me what is 
the use of the Missionary Baptists. Why do they claim that 
they can aid in the saving of sinners, when the Bible says 
distinctly that Jesus came into the world to do that very 
thing ? 

Again, I refer you to 2d Timothy i. 9,10: "Who hath 
saved us, and called us witll an holy calling; not according 
to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace 
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," 
(10) " But is now made manife* by the appearing of our 
Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and brought 
life and immortality to light through the gospel." 

Ephesians ii. 8, 9: "For by grace are ye saved, through 
faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." (9) 
"IN'ot of works, lest any man should boast." 

Kow, can any person, in the face of this statement that J 
have quoted, take the position that salvation is in any sense 
a work to be accomplished by the sinner? I think this pas- 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 15 

sage alone ought to substantiate my position. But I will 
quote from Matthew xi. 27: " Ko man knoweth the Sou, but 
the Father J neither knoweth any man the Father, save the 
Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." I take 
the position, as shown by that quotation, that the knowledge 
of God is revealed, and that we cannot know him otherwise; 
it is alone by revelation. 

John V. 21 : " For as the Father raiseth up the dead and 
quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom he will." 
I say we see from this, too, that it is not dependent upon the 
man. It does not say, I will quicken you if you will let me, 
but it says that he " quickeneth whom he willj" and that is 
the kind of a God that we worship. If it is the will of God, 
he will quicken every individual in this house now, according 
to the ttetimony that is brought to view here ; and let me 
tell you, all the powers of antichrist and all the powers of 
hell cannot prevent him from doing his work that he pur- 
posed doing in all eternity. 

Jude 1: '' Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother 
of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and 
preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." Mark the expression, 
" Sanctified by God the Father." There the character of God 
in this light is brought to view again. " Sanctified by God 
the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ," and the Bible 
says, " and called." The characters that are shown here are 
" called," '' sanctified by God the Father," and " preserved in 
Jesus Christ." These are the characters that are brought to 
view here as being called by God. 

1st John V. 10, 11 : " He that believeth on the Son of God 
hath the witness in himself;" which proves that we cannot 
believe on the Son of God without the witness being in our- 



16 DEBATE ON 

selves " He that believetb uot God, bath made him a liarj 
because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Sou." 
Let me call your atteutiou here for a momeut to this phrase, 
^' He that believeth not God, hath made him a liar." Why? 
Simply from the fact that he " believeth not the record that 
God gave of his Son." ]N"ow, what is that record ? Let me 
tell you what that record is. "And this is the record, that 
God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." 
I^ow let us see if we tannot prove our position. I want to 
tnow if this grace that is revealed to us and that quickens us 
into life is the gift of God, or whether it is accomplished, by 
man. '' He that believeth not God, hath made him a liar ; 
because he believeth not the record that God gave of his 
Sou. And this is the lecord, that God hath given to us eter- 
nal life." It is a gift of God from the first to the last; and 
let me tell you, if we have to work for it, it is not and cannot 
be a gift, l^o; I tell you that salvation is by the grace of 
God, and without any labor on the part of the sinner. It is 
not had by anything that we do or can do, and if you take the 
position that it can be done by the sinner himself, you then 
make God a liar, because he has said, " Because he believeth 
not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the 
record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is 
in his Sou." He has given it ; it is a gift. That is our doc- 
trine. It is charged, however, that the doctrine I have ad- 
vanced does not give a chance to all. Yery well. I want to 
know from my brother on the other side if he does uot believe 
that a portion of the race of man sinks down to eternal de- 
struction. If God has made salvation conditional and de- 
pendent upon certain work to be performed by the sinner, 
and the sinner fails to perform that work and goes to hell, I 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 17 

want to know if Jesus Christ did as much for that sinner that 
goes to hell as for the sinner that goes to heaven. If Jesus 
Christ did as much for the sinner that goes to hell as he who 
goes to heaven, I want to know if it is the act of the creature 
or the gift of God. I want to know if salvation is condition- 
al. I want to know if my brother is going to agree with me 
in the position that I have set up. If he does not agree with 
me, I want him to take up the quotations I have made and 
answer them before this people and say to them that these 
words do mean what I have said they mean. If salvation is 
conditional, I want him to tell you how. If election is con- 
ditional, and depends upon something to be done upon our 
part, I want him to tell you so, and I want him to prove it 
by the Bible 5 for it is truth alone that I am after, and not 
victory. If I am in error I want to get out of it before this 
discussion closes. I want to tell this people to-day that I be- 
lieve I stand on the right platform, and that is where I pro- 
pose to stand from first to last until I am convinced that I 
am wrong. 

A question will come up as to our preachers not being paid. 
Let me say in regard to that, I believe the Apostles when they 
sent assistance to the brethren in other parts thought it was 
right, and when we send our brethren to other parts to-day 
in the same way, it is equally right j but no doubt brother 
Wallace will tell you that the Old Baptists did not do that ; 
that they never paid a dollar to send the gospel anywhere. 
As to that, I wish to make a remark here and give an illus- 
tration. Brother Fulkersou, of Illinois, who is present here 
to-day, I saw a short time ago was sent to Kansas, as I un- 
derstand, for the purpose of helping to organize a church 
2 



18 DEBATE ON 

there, and I am informed the brethren in Illinois pay his ex- 
penses, which amount to, I believe, fifty dollars. But though 
we do that thing, we do not have hired missionaries for the 
purpose of going all over the country. I know that none of 
their missionaries joreach more than I do. I reckon there are 
none of them that ride more in one year than I do in preach- 
ing the gospel. I have traveled thousands of miles every year 
in the effort to spread the truth and proclaim it; but though 
I and others do the same thing, we do not do it through any 
missionary board. We do not have anything of that kind^ 
because there is nothing of it in the Bible, and we are gov- 
erned by the Bible. We take the Bible alone for our rule and 
practice. And that is wliere we stand to-day. I will show 
that this has been the rule and i^ractice that has governed 
our people from the days of the Apostles down to the pres- 
ent time. The question is asked, " How far back do you gof* 
I say now that I propose to trace them from the days of the 
Apostles down to this time — the people that are now called 
the Eegular Baptists. Brother Wallace cannot trace his peo- 
ple, nor the doctrines that he sets up, from that time. We 
take the position to- day that we stand right where the Bap- 
tists have always stood, and I think I have produced testi- 
mony enough in my opening speech of that position. I have 
spoken of the doctrine of Election, of the doctrine of the 
Atonement, and of the doctrine of Salvation, and if he can 
overturn the scriptural quotations I have produced here to- 
day, and if he can prove to this people that what the Bible 
says— that it is by grace alone and is the gift of God, and not 
the work of the sinner— if he can prove that by the Bible, 1 
will be very much surprised. Peter says that we believe that 
through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 19 

and that is where we stand to-day. We h^ire never deviated 
from that old landmark. We have never deviated from the 
primitive mode of preaching and practice. The Baptists did 
that in the dark ages, and they were put to death for it. 
Were they then the popular denomination ? Are they the 
popular denomination to-day ? If the Missionary Baptists 
stand on the platform that the Apostles of old did, and who 
were persecuted for their belief, why is it that they have be- 
come so popular now ? How does that come about ? The 
Bible says, " Woe unto you when all men speak well of you." 
The world cannot live in the truth until it is born of the Spir- 
it of God. Let me tell you that the doctrine which we pro- 
fess is the doctrine that the devotees of have ever been per- 
secuted for. The finger of scorn has ever been pointed at 
them ; and I tell you now, before God, that that will ever be 
the case. I say that according to the testimony of the Bible 
it will be the case always that the people of God set up as the 
church in our Lord Jesus Christ will ever be persecuted, as 
long as they stand. The kingdom that Christ set up was not 
of the world, and it does not, as 1 remarked before, require 
the wealth of the world to suj^port it. It never has, and it 
never will ; for Jesus Christ has said, " Upon this rock I will 
build my church." It is built -, and it does seem to me that 
when people want to know where that kingdom is they should 
not look for it in structures that are reared np by the inven- 
tions of men; they should not look for something that is 
kept up by money and machinery, or anything of that sort ; 
but they should look to the kingdom that grew by the power 
of the Lord Jesus Christ. For he says positively, '' Upon 
this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall 
not prevail against it." They have tried it, but they have 



20 DEBATE ON 

never succeeded- Away back in the dark ages they thought 
it would be extinguished ; but when we look around we see 
that when they were despised and oppressed, they sprang up 
in other places and preached this doctrine of salv^ation by 
grace ; and let me tell you that is the doctrine of the Baptists 
to-day, and has ever been their doctrine from the days of the 
Apostles down to the present time. They have never preached 
anything else ; and I say to you that everything outside of 
that doctrine is false. The truth as it is in the Lord Jesus 
Christ has ever been persecuted. There has never been a 
time, according to the history of the world, when the church 
of the Lord Jesus Christ has not been persecuted; and, breth- 
ren, I do honestly believe that if the time was to roll around 
when the world would fall in love with our system, and when 
the world would begin to speak in our favor, my impression 
is that we would cease to be the church of Christ ; for the 
Bible says, " Woe unto you when all men shall speak well of 
you." In the history of the world false prophets were al- 
ways thought well of; but the people of the true church were 
always persecuted. There were, it is said, eight hundred and 
fifty false prophets where there was one true one. 

I:^ow, brethren, what I say is to be i)ublished, for I want 
the people to know where I stand when I am dead and gone. 
I want them to know that it is all by grace from first to last, 
and I want them to know that we are saved only by the 
grace of God. Where is the character that is born of the 
Spirit of God that can come up before me to-day and say 
that it is not all by grace ^ I take the position here, before 
God, that salvation by grace, and by grace alone, is the only 
system that has ever been preached in the w^orld that is suf- 
ficient to reach the case of the human family in every condi- 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 21 

tion. It is God's plan, and his plan never fails ; but if we 
set up a system of our own, though we may succeed in 
making a big show, I tell you it will soon all become extin- 
guished. If salvation is to be had by works, and if it is left 
to the volition of the sinner, I want brother Wallace to tell 
you the duties of the sinner. 

It is well known to this people that the Missionary Bap- 
tists believe and teach the doctrine of free agency. When 
brother Wallace follows me, I want him to tell you if the doc- 
trine of free agency does not make the man the cause of his 
own salvation. I want him, if he takes the position that a 
man is a free agent, to explain to this people what a free 
agent is, in plain terms, so that we can all understand it. If 
we take the position that salvation is conditional, then we 
come across a people that cannot comply with the conditions. 
But when we take the position that salvation is alone by 
grace, here is God's plan j and let me tell you it can reach 
big and little. It applies to every condition a man may be in 
that has ever been placed in the world. It can reach the case 
of the blind ; it can reach the dumb -, it can reach the case of 
the deaf 5 and let me tell you here, that is the kind of a God 
that we preach to-day. I believe that the'people of God to- 
day feel dependent on God, and my dependence on him com- 
pelled me to this discussion. I speak so certainly, because I 
am so confident that I am standing on the truth as it is in 
the Lord Jesus Christ ; for if the Regular Baptists are wrong 
to-day, the Baptists have been wrong for eighteen hundred 
years. I defy my brother to show a people that has come up 
by regular succession from the days of the Apostles to the 
present time that has believed a doctrine in opposition to 
this that the Regular Baptists believe to-day. 

[The Moderator annonnced that the speaker's time was up.] 



EEY. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentle3IEIs Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : I am be- 
fore YOU this morning to commence a series of lectures on the 
principles you have heard read. My brother says he can 
show a people coming from the days of the Apostles. So 
can L He cannot show, however, that his is the people. 
]S'ow, mark that. I know that he can show that there is a 
people that came up from that time, but when he says that 
his is that people, I deny it ; and all I ask of this peoi^le is 
that I may have your attention during the time that I will 
speak. I will show that his is not the people that he has spo- 
ken of, and I will prove it by works that he himself depends 
on. I will prove it by the Pedo works, men that are not di- 
rectly interested in this discussion. I will prove it by the 
Pedobaptists themselves that he never had an existence prior 
to the year 1832, and I defy him to show auywhere that he 
had a separate existence prior to that year. I feel at the 
present time like Paul before Agrippa: 1 feel that I am here 
before my God to answer for my belief. I know that these 
Eegular Baptists, as they call themselves, have preached all 
over the country that they excluded us from their church j 
but I will prove to you emphatically that these slanders that 
have been heaped on our people are absolutely without foun- 
dation. I propose before this discussion ends to forever put 
a quietus on that claim, that they excluded us from their 
church. And now, all you Bai)tists here who have been wink- 
ing for brother Hardy, please wink a little while for me. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 23 

I wil! DOW submit to brother Hardy a series of qaestions 
that involve the difference between him and me, and I will 
give him two days and a half to answer them, and then I will 
assume the burden of proof. iJ^ow, mark what I tell you : it 
does not depend on me to prove these things until the two 
days and a half have expired, and at the end of that time I 
will assume the burden of proof on these points. 

The first question I will ask brother Hardy is, Where did 
you have a separate denomination before the year 1832 ? How 
many Baptists were there in 1832, when the separation com- 
menced ? I will ask him to tell this people how many Bap- 
tists there were in the United States in the year 1840, when, 
the separation ended. Also tell this people how many people 
you excluded from the church. Tell them how many you 
have now in the United States, and tell them how many you 
have in Europe. Who first brought the gospel from Europe 
to America? Tell this people what makes the difference be- 
tween the people of America and the heathen nations. 

I assure you now that brother Hardy will not answer one 
of these questions. Some of them he cannot answer, and 
some of them he will not answer, because they are directly 
opposed to his doctrine. I put these questions to Mr. Hardy 
once before when we had a discussion in Livingston County, 
and on that occasion he failed to answer one of them. And 
here is another question I will put to him : Did you ever send 
a missionary on any plan whatever ? It is true that brother 
Hardy says that he did : that brother Fulkerson went over 
to Kansas somewhere, I reckon to feed the sheep. That is 
your doctrine, sheep feeders. But I will propound another 
query : Did you ever have a Theological School, or a Bible or 
Tract Society ? and I will show you hereafter why I ask these 



24 DEBATE ON 

questious. Brother Hardy says I cannot go away back yon- 
der to support my position. Well, we will see about that. 
I will show you the existence of Theological institutions be- 
fore you ever had any existence at all. I will show you where 
there were Tract Societies a thousand years before your de- 
nomination had an existence. I will proceed with my ques- 
tions. Where did you ever have an organized prayer meet- 
ing ? Did you ever hold a protracted meeting ? I propose 
to show from the Bible protracted meetings, and I will show 
from the same source missionary operations. I will also 
show a financial agent being used. Did you ever have a 
general association belonging to your order I Did you ever 
make articles of faith a test of fellowship in your denomi- 
nation ? 

Then, what did he say next ? '• We believe in eternal elec- 
tion." Xow eternal election means eternal children. Well, 
who denies that ? Then he says, "An unchangeable God is 
the kind of a God we worship." I suppose the intimation is 
that the Missionary Baptists worship a changeable God. He 
says, '"According to some people's " doctrine. Whose people 
does he mean ? There are now one thousand denominations 
in the world. Brother Hardy should tell us what he means 
by " some people." There are Reformers here, and there are 
Presbyterians, and there are Methodists, and they don't know 
what you mean. Let brotlier Hardy just say " Wallace's 
people," and I will answer him. I am here to defend them 
and my system. 

My brother sets up his position as to salvation, and inti- 
mates that the people whom I represent bejieve in salvation 
by works. Xow if he will make that charge squarely before 
this people, I will go for him. Talk of your salvation by 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 25 

grace! Why, our people believe that as much as anybody, 
and brother Hardy knows it. I tell you the prejudice of 
these people is so great that they will not do us justice j not 
because they are not good people, but simply their prejudices 
are so great that they will not do other denominations jus- 
tice. Why, they tell people that they are the only people 
that preach the truth. Don't they preach that very thing all 
over the country? 

. Now I propose to prove that these very people have de- 
parted from the teachings of the Primitive Baptists, and I 
propose to prove it by their own authors. Here is Fain, who 
came through this country a few years ago and went from 
church to church. You know how these people have talked 
about missionaries and hired preachers. Mr. Hardy knows 
how I ran this thing on him in the previous discussion we 
had, and he will not forget it. Hear what Fain says on that 
point. Does it hinder gospel progress ? No. Does it dis- 
courage sinners ? He says no. Does it force them to hell ! 
Again he says no. If a sinner is lost it is because he would 
not accept the truth. And that is the doctrine that we are 
preaching in this country. I will show you emphatically from 
this same author that this people have deviated from the 
principles and practices of the ancient Baptists. On page 84 
of this same book the following x^assage occurs : " There is, 
strange to say, an error entertained by some brethren, that 
the minister of the Lord should not call on ' all men every- 
where to repent,' on sinners to look to Christ and be saved, 
nor on unbelievers to believe. They are constantly saying, 
to preach in this way betrays Arminianism." And don't yoa 
all know how mortally afraid those people are of that ? They 
make a bugbear of it everywhere that they preach. Then 



2Q DEBATE ON 

this passage procpeds : *' Observe, shall we become Armini- 
ans by faithfully preaching according to the commission giv- 
en by the Savior ? Some, indeed, seem to think so ; for when 
the minister discharges his duty zealously, faithfully, and in 
a gospel' manner, there are certain ones who cry out. He is 
an Arminian. The great error, that this is one of the vari- 
eties of Arminianism, is affecting both our pulpits and 
churches ; for instead of requiring this kind of preaching, 
and sustaining it as a church, we fear some are opposed to it, 
and use their influence to suppress it." So you see here that 
Watson says it is affecting '' our churches," and if you deny 
that, you have to renounce Watson. Then he goes on to 
say, " I ask. now, in the name of this world-wide commission, 
including as it does every creature capable of hearing, and 
which authorizes and commands the ministerial servants of 
the Lord to preach the gospel to every creature, who does 
so ? with that love, zeal and regard for the sinner, I subjoin 
to the question, which the Lord enjoins. Further, is it not 
to be feared that we have in this way grieved and silenced to 
some extent the spirit of exhortation in our pulpits ?" 

]^ow I want to know what the brother is to say in answer 
to that charge of Dr. Watson's. I know that you have done 
what he says, and I know that you know it. Xow he says 
further : " Brethren, have we not deviated somewhat in this 
particular from the Apostolic mode of preaching f I say 
you have, and very badly have you deviated, too. Watson 
proceeds : " If so, let us correct our errors by the word of 
God. Who is willing to attempt it ? Who is ready to lead 
off in this great but neglected work, as ' examiDles ' to more 
timid and fearful ones ? Let those undertake it who are able 
to convince the gfainsavers from the word of God that such 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 27 

preaching was commanded by the Lord, and that the preach- 
ing of his servants, as long as we have a scriptural history 
of it, furnishes a practical example of this mode of preaching 
the gospel. A gospel without exhortation, without a call on 
the sinner to repent and believe, a gospel which does not in 
a word address itself to all, is not the gospel which Christ 
ordained." Xow what do you say to that 1 I ask this people 
if that is the kind of gospel that is preached to this people 
to-day. And I say now that your people never had a better 
man than Watson. 

I want to know how far back my brother is going. Of 
course I know he did not expect this thing to be sprung on 
him. It is a sort of left-hand lick, as the Beujamites of old 
gave. 

I will now quote from page 87 : "Forgetting that he who 
gave repentance and faith also gave the word ; and that he 
who is exalted a Prince and Savior to give repentance unto 
the elect, also commanded that his gospel should be preached 
in the letter to all — to every creature. But the objector here 
repeats that all men will not receive its blessings, and why 
call on all to receive them V^ Now, I ask you if you have 
ever preached Arminianism because they x^reached the gos- 
pel " to every creature," as it is put here ? And I suppose 
you have here to-day as good a representation as you can 
muster. 

Again, Watson says: " How mortifying to the feelings of a 
faithful preacher to be called an Arminian on account of 
preaching according to the very commission which Christ 
gave for the rule and government of his ministry. Brethren 
preachers, it is high time that we strive to please God in this 
affair rather than men." Yes, brother Hardy, it is high time 



28 DEBATE ON 

that you were striving to please God. I will show you that 
you are not nearly so strong as you imagine, and, indeed, I 
will show you what keeps your denomination alive at all. I 
ask you to look at page 516 of this same book, where the fol- 
lowing passage occurs : "But the worst deviation of all is, 
that of our not exhorting both saint and sinner, as enjoined 
in the word of God. A gospel without exhortations may 
not be ' another gospel,' but it is not a full one." And that 
is the very charge I make on your people to-day, that they do 
not preach the fall gospel, and have never done it since you 
separated yourself from the United Baptists, commencing in 
the year 1832, until it ended in Illinois in 1840. 

Then hear what Watson says further : "Our cold doctrinal, 
nonexhorting way of preaching has doubtless already pro- 
duced bad results." Yes, and you are dying on account of 
that very fact. That is what the best writer your denomina- 
tion has says ; that it has produced bad results in your de- 
nomination. ]S"ow, I want you to fall your timber on your 
own brother if that is wrong. 

Watson proceeds then : " Who in the present day exhorts 
the brethren ' with many words ' in regard to christian du- 
ties ? — Acts XV. 32. Paul employed ' much exhortation,' we 
only a little. Who among us exhorts the gainsayers I — Titus 
i. 9. We have rather ' forgotten ' the exhortations. Who 
among us ever repeat the words, ' Eepent ye,' '■ Believe on 
the Lord Jesus Christ,' without mixing up the strong doc- 
trine of repentance and faith with the exhortation f And I 
ask, Who of you do it now 1 " If the texts be used at all, 
we employ them only in a doctrinal, and not in an exhorta- 
tory way. We have lost both the spirit and words of exhor- 
tation. The very exhortations, admonitions, warnings and 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 29 

threatenings of the Bible itself, when repeated from our pul- 
pits are regarded by some ultraists as Arminianisra. At 
least it would be very difficult for any one to j)reach them in 
their spiritual fullness without incurring the charge or re- 
proach of Arminianism." And I say now that I have heard 
these very people that Watson speaks about stand up and 
call such texts as these Arminianism. I have heard them 
^^from the Scriptures" and call it " an Arminian text," just 
as if it was not the word of God. You know where God in 
speaking says, " My Spirit," that brother Hardy and his peo- 
ple retort that it means l^oah's spirit. Now, who ever heard 
such a doctrine as that fall from the lips of mortal man, 
where God says, " My Spirit," that man should claim that it 
refers to Noah's spirit ! And again, where the text reads, 
" God commandeth all men to repent," their preachers say, 
" You know that is not so 5 you know God never command- 
ed a man to do a thing but what he did it." And they go on 
to say that the church has no power to make a man repent. 
And so there are a great many other things of that sort, but 
I shall have to pass them by, and proceed with my quota- 
tions from their own author, Dr. Watson : " The very way 
of grace and mercy is to blend exhortations and admonitions 
■with the commandment. God is a Sovereign, and could have 
given his commands without them ; but as a God of mercy 
he commands and then exhorts, he exhorts and then admon- 
ishes, he admonishes and then warns. A stern ruler may 
give absolute order without admonition or warning, relying en- 
tirely on his authority to command; but the Lord does not 
^hus deal with us ; his way is a way of Fatherly love ; he 
commands and then in mercy exhorts and warns. How great 
is the grace of exhortation ! Shall the minister suppress this 



30 DEBATE ON 

grace and mercy in the pulpit ? Shall he deny its utterance 
there? x^ow, brethren, I have come to the strong point, an 
undeniable truth, has not God joined the exhortations with 
the commandments ? And how dare we preach one without 
the other ? We have become too sensitive, and are not wil- 
ling to suffer among brethren for the truth's sake. 

'' Some do not object if the believers only be exhorted, but 
contend it is wrong to exhort the impenitent sinner to repent, 
or the unbeliever to believe, because the doctrine of repent- 
ance and faith is that they are both the gifts of God. Has 
not the Lord ordained the preaching of his word to the very 
end P 

And yet this people deny that the gospel has a thing to do 
with the salvation of a sinner. They deny that the sinner is 
a subject of gospel address. I make that assertion, and if it 
is called in question at any time during this discussion, 1 will 
produce the evidence to prove it. I say that these people 
deny that a sinner is a subject of gospel address. 

1 now call your attention to page 518 of this same book, 
where the following occurs : " What do we learn from the 
sacred history of preaching? Peter preached repentance to 
the great congregation on the day of Pentecost, and to the 
multitude in the temple, saying, ^Eepent ye.' Did not Paul, 
in declaring the unknown God to. the Athenians, say that he 
* commandeth all men everywhere to repent ' — to all men ev- 
erywhere is the commandment to repent? Peter exhorted 
even the wicked Simon to repent." Now, I will ask you, 
brother Hardy, will you get up and tell this people that this 
is your doctrine ? If you do so, your own brethren will* 
say at once that you contradict what has been preached all 
over this country for years and years. You will not do it — 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 31 

you dare not do it ; for this is a charge put upon you by one 
of your own writers, and I adopt and make that same charge. 
The reason I adopt it is that because it is put in language 
much stronger than I have command of. 

Then I turn to page 520, where the following occurs : "The 
Lord has ordained this way ; our violation of it in the nine- 
teenth century will not cause it to fail j others will do the 
work ; it needs must be done 5 and this may be the cause 
why so few are coming into our churches. We have violated 
our commission. Let us search and try our ways, and turn 
again to the Lord." I ask you all to mark that passage, 
"And this may be the cause why so few are coming into our 
churches." 

Brother Watson states distinctly what is the cause of your 
decline, and I will speak further on this subject before this 
discussion closes. Here is what Watson says: " We have vi- 
olated our commission." I say that is the truth, and that is 
what you have to rectify. 

" Let us preach to the ' many ' as well as to the ' few,' take 
encouragement and call upon ' all men everywhere to repent,' 
and exhort them to do so with that zeal which constrained 
Paul to ' persuade men.' " IS'ow, have you done that ? You 
say you have never left the doctrine of the Old Baptists, and 
here is one of your own writers that makes this remark. You 
say you have taught the same doctrine. Have you done it ? 
" Let us constantly declare that all things are now ready, 
both on the high places, and among the hedges, lanes and 
ditches." But say you, " We are sheep-feeders ; we cannot 
go among the hedges, lanes and ditches ;" and while thou- 
sands of peox^le are starving for the truth, you still stay out- 
side and refuse to go to them. 



32 DEBATE ON 

Hear what Watson says : " What if hearers make excuses, 
that does not invalidate our commission ; it only shows its 
practical agreement with former results. Are we ashamed 
to labor, to 'compel* them to come in, as did ancient serv- 
ants ?" Xow, I say to you, brother Hardy, that you and your 
people are ashamed of it. For what does Jesus Christ mean 
when he tells you to go out and tell them to come in ? He 
says go out into " the hedges, lanes and ditches," and invite 
all the world to come in ; and these are the " servants " of the 
Lord. And that was the belief of the ancient Baptists hun- 
dreds of years before the separation occurred. However, I 
will speak of that more fully when I come to give my nega- 
tive proof in this discussion. 

"But the objection is, that he cannot 'persuade' or 'com- 
pel^ them to come in, and therefore it would be Arminianism 
to preach in that way. What, Arminianism to do the very 
things which the Lord has commanded V- That is what you 
say, fhat it is Arminianism to do as God has commanded you 
to do — Arminianism to do the very thing that God has com- 
manded you to do. It is Arminianism that you are afraid of^ 
and it i& on that ground that you are heaping your vitupera- 
tions upon a community of Missionary Baptists all over the 
land. Did not brother Hardy say in his opening argument 
that his people believed in the doctrine of salvation by grace? 
Well, what do the Missionary Baptists believe f The rules 
of this discussion lay down that you shall not charge your 
opponent with a thing until he avows it. Therefore I will 
not answer that point until he has avowed it. 

But hear what Dr. Watson says further : " Whenever one 
of our ministers ventures to call on sinners to repent and be- 
lieve the gospel, he begins directly afterwards to explain by 



CHUKCH IDENTITY. 33 

preaching the strong doctrine of repentance, instead of fol- 
lowing up the commandment with the exhortations, warnings 
and threatenings of the Bible as he should, in conformity 
with the divine method. His aim or desire seems to be rath- 
er to convince his brethren that he is not an Arminian, than 
to exliort sinners to repent.'' And that is the very way they 
do, and all of you who have ever heard those preachers speak 
from the pulpit know that what I say is true. 

l^ow, you want me to say something about free moral agen- 
cy. Brother Hardy has had a great deal to say on the sub- 
ject of free moral agency. What is a man if he is not a free 
agent ? They say he is an agent in the hands of God. I 
presume as a machine is in the hands of his master — that he 
works when the Master works him. That is the kind of 
agency they believe in. 

Hear what Watson says on that : " Here we see the com- 
mission of sin on the part of Adam from an internal person- 
al source, and not from an external one, as in the case of 
Eve. Adam was not deceived ; but through the miitability 
of his will and his moral free agency he willed to go into 
transgression with Eve." Adam was a free moral agent, but 
he willed to do what he did j he was not forced into it. If 
man is an agent of God, he could not act freely ; if he can 
act freely, is not he a free moral agent ? If a man does not 
act freely, he acts under restraint. Here is brother Hardy's 
own witness against him. The same author says : " Then sin 
may be said to issue from the defection of the creature, 
through his mutability, finitude and moral free agency, and 
not from an evil spirit coeternal with God, and the evils of 
si-n are the punishments inflicted by the Lord, which are 
3 



34 DEBATE ON 

graduated, controlled aud dpeci'ed by liim to preseiibed is- 
sues." Man was not placed u:jdei' the ]aw of necessity, for 
if he were he would not be responsible for his actions, and 
could not act freely. The sinner, we leain from the Bible, is 
to be punished. God is the punisher ; and if God is the pun- 
isher, the punishmeut is just. If the punishmeut is just, 
man is guilty ; and if the man is guilty, he violated the law 
of God. And so man is a fiee moral agent j and if he is a 
free moral agent, he could have acted otherwise. I would 
like to know what conclusion can be drawn from this, except 
as I have stated 5 and if there is anything to be said on it, I 
would like to have brother Hardy auswer my argumeut. 

Now, if the meaos and instrn mentalities are denied, they 
deny the use of them. Brother Hardy has said that he did 
not believe in the use of means. But hear what oue of his 
own preachers (Dr. Watson) says oa that subject : " Paul, 
however, does not affirm like some of our modern innovators,*' 
and that is all that these men are to-day. They are the in- 
novators who are preaching throughout the land against us. 
Watson has no reference to our people, because he knew that 
we never did that. " Paul, however, does not affirm like 
some of our modern innovators that means or instrumentali- 
ties are not employed by the Loid in the dirine plan of sal- 
vation." Brother Hardy's people deny that in this country. 
They deny emphatically means and instrumentalities, and 
have done it throughout this whole country. They deny that 
God has commanded the work that the Missionary Baptists 
are now carrying out in the world. And they have gone on 
and heaped their vituperations on the heads of these people 
who were doing that great work. Let me quote again this 
passage of Dr. Watson's : " Paul does not affirm like some of 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 35 

our inodeiD innovators that means or iostramentalities are 
not employed by Lbe Lord in llie divine plan of salvation; 
for be asks, *How sball they hecir wiihout a preacher f" 
That is wbat Paul says about it : and I ask brother Hardy to 
auswer the question, and I will give him two aucl a half days 
in which io do it. Wbat makes the difference between Amer- 
icans and the heathen nations ? 

I now read from Watson, page 532: ''We have become 
reprehensibly careless about means." Yes; tbi^t is just ex- 
actly what your people have done, brother Hardy; "they 
have become iex">rehensibly caieless abont means." " Means 
in the hands of God partake of his power; in ours, of our 
strength only. We employ means with a prospect of success 
only in faiib, iiie.sx)ectively of any coufidence in them ax>art 
from the power of God; so tliat all our duties, in that way, 
are performed as fully by faith in God, as though tbere were 
no means at all. Tbe observance of such Ihiogs become 
special duties perfojmed according to the commandments of 
the Lord." That is what Dr. Watson says; and yet these 
l^eopie deny to thousands all over tbis land the use of means 
and instrumentalities. They say emphatically that the gos- 
pel in the bauds of the preacher is not the means of salva- 
tion to tbe sinner; they deny that tbe gospel has auything 
to do with the salvation of the sinner; they deny that all 
over this laud and country, and, consequenily, heap their 
vituperations on the people because we do believe this doc- 
trine and because we preach it, because we obey the divine 
commandments of God. They heap their vituperations and 
vilifications upon us for preaching the word according to 
God's divine commandments. " We should always employ 
means in faith; we should regard their employment on our 



36 DEBATE ON 

part only as a duty ; in this way the use of means is perfectly 
consistent with our doctrine; and in this manner they were 
employed by all the Bible worthies. God has assuredly con- 
nected his work of grace in this world with many visible 
signs, outward duties, commandments, exhortations or 
means, as you may be pleased to name them. When one 
says he does not believe in the use of means, it amounts to 
his saying he does not believe in a performance of christian 
duties." That is exactly what it amounts to, and exactly what 
you have been doing throughout this land and country. You 
have denied " the use of means," and you have denied a belief 
in the " performance of christian duties." Consequently you, 
as a denomination, are dying as fast as you possibly can 
and if it were not for your taking members away from our 
church, members that had been excluded from our church, 
you would have been dead long ago. You have denied the 
use of means, and yet you have taken lost sheep into the fold, 
all the time heaping vituperation upon our people through- 
out this land and country, because they believe in protracted 
meetings, &c. I know what I am talking about, and I do 
not wish to misrepresent the teachings of these people at all 
in this discussion. Your people know these things to be 
true as well as I do. *' Suppose Moses had said means are 
of no use." That is what you say. But Dr. Watson pro- 
ceeds: " Suppose Moses had said means are of no use, neither 
the rod, nor the stretching forth of my arm can do good in 
this extremity; the leper, that the waters of Jordan cannot 
cure leprosy; Paul, that it is not necessary for the crew to 
remain in the ship; John, that it will be of no avail for me to 
say, repent; the disciples, that it will be of no avail to exhort 
and admonish the brethren. These servants did not act in 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 37 

that way, but were careful to do all things which the Lord 
commanded, giving us thereby examples of duty, of faith, 
and regard for the ways of the Lord. Had we not better go 
and imitate their example than to stand still and controvert 
about them as many do in the present day?" Here again 
your brother asks you this question, and I ask you now, if you 
had not better do your duty as christians than to stand and 
controvert about these things. To preach the gospel is our 
work, it is the work of the minister, and the work of the ser- 
vant of Jesus Christ 5 and God has called them to that work, 
and it is your duty, and our duty, to perform it as God has 
commanded. We ought not, as Dr. Watson says, stand still 
and controvert about such things. But, instead of that, you 
go about and say that it would be Arminianism to preacb in 
this way. That is what you tell the people throughout this 
whole land and country. If this is wrong, as I have quoted 
from your own author, I ask you to fall your timber on Mm 
and not on me. I read it because it supports and proves my 
position, and I adopt it as the truth; and I know that there 
are people throughout this land and country, that are famil- 
iar with your preaching, that know it is the truth. I know 
that there are many of your people here to-day who know 
that what Watson says here is the truth. I know that these 
things are incontrovertible; and, consequently, I stand here 
to-day fearless of successful contradiction on the part of my 
opponent. 

I have a great deal more to quote from in Watson, but I 
will just say to the congregation that I will make use of it 
again this evening. I will get through Watson this evening, 
and then take up another of their own histories, the '• Old 
Baptist Test," published at Nashville and used bv Fain. 



38 DEBATE ON 

After I have coDcluded with their owa histories I will take 
up mj negative proof to prove the position I have taken in 
the questions I have stated, and I will give my opponent 
just two days and a half in which to answer them. So, for 
the present, I will close. 



ELDER HARDY SAID: 



[Afternoon Session.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am 
again before you to pursue my subject. In my previous dis- 
course I spoke from the Bible alone, but my opponent, in 
the place of taking the Bible to reply to me, takes up other 
books that have no reference whatever to the quotations I 
made. He has not in the least referred to my argument, and 
has made no attempt to answer it. He referred in the course 
of his remarks to a discussion that we had a little while pre- 
vious across the river, and tells what he did over there. Now, 
if he will endeavor to reply to me on the present occasion, in- 
stead of going back to another time that has no connection 
whatever with this, I think he will be more in poin t. Though , 
as he has referred to that, I will say now that on that pre- 
vious occasion I prefaced my argument with quotations from 
the Bible, as I have done on the present occasion j and he 
then, as on this occasion, never took up, or attempted to an- 
swer, one of those arguments. 

Well, he says that we as a denomination did not hav© an 
existence previous to the year 1832; that in 1832 there sprung 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 39 

up a Dew denomination, which he says was the Old Baptists, 
and that the Missionary Baptists were the church of Christ. 
I want to know why it is that the church of Christ, since it 
has had a new existence, can be the church of Christ when 
the Baptists never did receive baptism from the hands of any 
people previous to that time. If they were the church of 
Christ, and we are a new party, coming into existence in 
1832, let him tell me why the church of Christ began to re- 
ceive our baptism as soon as we came into existence. I do 
not know that it is my business on this occasion to put my- 
self in the negative of the proposition. I understand that I 
am in tbe afflrmative, and that it is brother Wallace's duty 
to reply to me. Consequently I will proceed with the thread 
of my argument. 

I propose now to inquire into the succession of these peo- 
/ple that I have talked about before, the people of God, the 
xjhurch of Christ. I propose to begin by asserting the suc- 
cession of these people from the days of the Apostles down 
to the present time without a single solitary link being left 
out of the chain. I will first refer you, in confirmation of my 
position, to Jones's Church History, page 99, which shows 
that Paul the Apostle was put to death A. D. 66. I next 
turn to pages 128 and 129 of the same book (and I may 
say here that this Jones's Church History will be the only 
book that I will make quotations from in this speech) : '' The 
■churches of Asia appear to have suffered dreadfully at this 
period. Polycarp was pastor of the church in Smyrna, an 
office which he held for more than eighty years, and which 
he had filled with honor to himself, to the edification of his 
-christian brethren, and the glory of his divine Master. It 
only remained for him now to seal his testimony with his 



40 DEBATE ON 

blood. The eminence of his station soon marked him out as 
the victim of popular fury. The cry of the multitude against 
Polycarp was, ' This is the doctor of Asia, the father of the 
christians, the subverter of our gods, who teaches many that 
they must not perform the sacred rites, nor worship our 
deities. Away icith these Atheists P The philosophy of the 
emperor could not teach him that this pretended Atheism 
was a real virtue, which deserved to be encouraged and prop- 
agated amongst mankind. Here reason and philosophy 
failed him; and his blind attachment to the gods of his coun- 
try caused him to shed much blood, and to become the de- 
stroyer of the saints of the living God. 

^' The friends of Polycarp, anxious for his safety, prevailed 
on him to withdraw himself from public view, and to retire 
to a neighboring village, which he did, continuing with a few 
of his brethren, day and night, in prayer to God^for the tran- 
quillity of all the churches. The most diligent search was, 
in the mean time, made for him without effect. But when 
his enemies proceeded to put some of his brethren to the tor- 
ture, with the view of compelling them to betray him, he 
could no longer be prevailed upon to remain concealed^ 
* The will of the Lord be done,' was his«pious ejaculation^ on 
uttering which he made a voluntary surrender of himself to 
his persecutors, saluted them with a cheerful countenance, 
and invited them to refresh themselves at his table, only 
soliciting from them on his own behalf one hour for prayer. 
They granted his request, and his devotions were prolonged 
to double the period, with such sweetness and savor that all 
who heard him were struck with admiration, several of the 
soldiers repenting that they were employed against so venera- 
ble an old man. His prayer being ended, they set him on an 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 41 

ass, and conveyed him towards the city, being met on the 
road by Herod, the Irenarch, (a kind of justice of the peace,) 
and his father ^icetes, who were the chief agents in this per- 
secution. Many efforts were made to shake his constancy, 
and induce him to abjure his profession; at one time he was 
threatened by the proconsul with the fury of wild beasts. 
' Call for them,' said Polycarp, ' it does not become us to 
turn from good to evil.' ' Seeing you make so light of wild 
beasts,' said the magistrate, ' I will tame you with the more 
terrible punishment of fire.' But Polycarp bravely replied, 
* You threaten me with a fire that is quickly extinguished, 
but are ignorant of the eternal fire of God's judgment, re- 
served for the wicked in the other world. But why do you 
delay ? Order what punishment you please.' Thus, finding 
him impenetrable both to the arts of seduction and the dread 
of punishment, the fire was commanded to be lighted, and the 
body of this venerable father burnt to ashes, in the year 166»" 

I think no historian will dispute about the truth of the 
statements made in the quotation that I have made. 

I will now refer you to pages 136 and 137: ''A numerous 
church existed at Carthage in the latter end of the second 
and beginning of the third century, of which Tertullian was 
one of the pastors. He may be said to have flourished from 
the year 194 to 229." 

Then turn to pages 157 and 158, of the same book: '• Power 
was an engine of support to the different factions; and the 
sword of persecution, which, for three centuries, had been 
drawn by the Pagans against the followers of Christ." 

Also see pages 180 and 181 : " It may be proper to remark, 
that long before the times of which we now treat, some chris- 
tians had seen it their duty to withdraw from the communion 



42 DEBATE OX 

of the church of Eome. The first instance of this that we 
find on record, if we excei^t that of Tertullian, is the case of 
2:N"ovatian, who, in the year 251, was ordained the pastor of a 
church in the city of Eome, which maintained no fellowship 
with the Catholic part. It is a difficult matter, at this very 
remote period, to ascertain the real grounds of difference be- 
tween Xovatian and his ox)ponents. Those who are in any 
tolerable degree conversant with theological controversy, will 
scarcely need to be apprised how much caution is necessary 
to guard against being misled by the false representations 
which difi'erent parties give of each other's principles and 
conduct. Xovatian is said to have refused to receive into 
the communion of the church any of those persons who, in 
the time of persecution, had been induced, through fear of 
sufferings or death, to apostatize from their profession, and 
offer sacrifices to the heathen deities; a principle. which he 
founded upon a mistaken view of Hebrews vi. 4, G. We may 
readily conceive how interesting and difficult a subject this 
must have been to all the churches of Christ in those dis- 
tressing times, and the danger that must have arisen from 
laying down any fixed rule of conduct that should apply to 
all cases that would come before them; or even verging 
towards an extreme on either side of this question. The fol- 
lowing is the account given of Xovatian by the late Mr. 
Eobert Eobinson, in his Ecclesiastical Eesearches, page 12G; 
and I the more readily submit it to the reader, because none 
who knew Mr. Eobinson can for a moment suspect him of 
having any undue predilection for the principles of Xovatian. 
^ He was,' says he, ' an elder in the church of Eome, a man of 
extensive learning, holding the same doctrine as the church 
did, and published several treatises in defense of what he be- 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 43 

iieved. His address was eloquent and insinuating, and his 
morals irreproachable. He saw with extreme pain the in- 
tolerable depravity of the church. Christians, in the space 
of a very few years, were caressed by one emperor and ])er- 
secuted by another. In seasons of prosperity, many i)ersons 
rushed into the church for base puri)Oses. In times of adver- 
sity, they denied the faith, and reverted again to idolatry. 
When the squall was over, away they came again to the 
church, with all their vices, to deprave others by their ex- 
amples. The bishops, fond of proselytes, encouraged all 
this, and transferred the attention of christians from the old 
confederacy for virtue, to vain shows at Easter, and other 
Jewish ceremonies, adulterated too with paganism. On the 
death of Bishop Fabian, Cornelius, a brother elder, and a 
violent partisan for taking in the multitude, was put in nomi- 
nation. Novatian opposed him j but as Cornelius carried his 
•election, and he saw no prospect of reformation, but on the 
contrary a tide of immorality pouring into the church, he 
withdrew, and a great many with him. Cornelius, imitated 
by Cyprian, who was just in the same condition, through the 
remonstrances of virtuous men at Carthage, and who was ex- 
asperated beyond measure with one of his own elders, named 
Novatus, who had quitted Carthage and gone to Eome to 
espouse the cause of Novatian, called a council and got a 
sentence of excommunication passed against Novatian. In 
the end N"ovatian formed a church and was elected bishop. 
Great numbers followed his example, and all over the empire 
Puritan churches were constituted and flourished through 
the succeeding two hundred years. Afterwards, when penal 
laws obliged tbem to lurk in corners, and worship God in 



44 DEBATE ON 

private, they were distinguished by a variety of names, and 
a succession of them continued till tlie Beformation.''^ 

Page 282: " 'Here then,' says Dr. AUix, very truly, * we 
have found a body of men in Italy, before the year one thou- 
sand and twenty-six, five hundred years before the Reforma- 
tion, who believed contrary to the opinions of the church of 
Eome, and who highly condemned their errors.' Atto, bishop 
of Yerceulli, had complained of such people eighty years be- 
fore, and so had others before him, and there is the' highest 
reason to believe that they had always existed in Italy." 

Page 283: "About the year 1040, the Paterines had become 
very numerous at Milan, which was their principal residence, 
and here they flourished at least two hundred years. They 
had no connection with the [Catholic] church." 

I will just remark here, without turning and reading it, 
that in 1120 the Waldenses wrote out their Articles of Faith,, 
and published them to the world in the year 1220 ; and these 
Articles of Faith stand recorded on page 323 of Joneses 
Church History. 

Xow, I next call your attention to page 310. Reineriu^ 
Saccho, " about the year 1250, published a catalogue of the 
errors of the Waldenses under three and thirty distinct 
heads." 

Turn to page 383 of this same work : " In the year 1210, 
twenty-four persons of the sect of the Waldenses were seized 
in the city of Paris, some of whom were imprisoned, and 
others committed to the flames. In the year 1334, the monks 
of the inquisition, who were deputed to search after the Wal- 
denses, apprehended one hundred and fourteen of them at 
Paris, who were burnt alive, sustaining their torture with 
admirable fortitude." 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 45 

Page 426 : '' In the year 1530, George Moel, one of the pas- 
tors of a church of the Waldenses, published memoirs of the 
history of their churches, in which he states that at the time 
he wrote there were above eight hundred thousand persons 
professing the religion of the Waldenses 5 nor will this ap- 
pear an exaggerated statement if we consider the view that 
was given, in the last section, of their dispersion throughout 
almost every country of Europe — the immense numbers that 
suffered martyrdom ; and what was formerly mentioned that 
in the year 1315, namely, two centuries before this time, there 
were eighty thousand of them in the small kingdom of Bo- 
hemia." 

Page 464 : " An edict was issued in favor of the Walden- 
ses, bearing date the 5th of June, 1561, granting them the 
privilege of holding their public assemblies in all the usual 
places, free from molestation 5 and that such of them as had 
been injured by the seizure and confiscation of their property 
should have it restored, or receive a compensation for the 
same." 

Page 472 : " In the year 1601, Bartholomew Oopin, a Wal- 
densian of the valley of Lucerne, had occasion to attend a 
public fair at Ast, a city in Piedmont, to which he had 
•brought for sale some articles of merchandise," &c. 

Page 504 : " About the month of May, 1655, that many 
hundreds of the poor Protestants in the valleys of Piedmont, 
(otherwise known by the name of Waldenses) within the ter- 
.ritory of the Duke of Savoy, were most cruelly massacred 
by a Popish party." 

Page 525 : " The tranquillity of the Waldenses in Pied- 
mont was now first invaded by a proclamation issued by the 
governor of the valleys, about the end of the year 1685." 



46 DEBATE ON 

I have now biougai. tliis people up to Hie year 1685, and I 
will now proceed to speak uf them astliey were on tlie Amer- 
ican continent. In 1707 there was an organization called the 
Philadelphia Association. The Eed Elver Association was 
organized in 1680, and Lhe Liitle Elver Association was or- 
ganized in 1813. That, I think, is going far enough back;; 
but I will refer yoa to another book that I think is equally 
as good testimony as that which I have already i)roduced. I 
refer you to Maclaine's Mosheim's Ecclesiastical History. I 
will not turn to the various passages and read from them^, 
because my time is too limited, but I will give you the pages,, 
which the inquiriog may at leisure turn to. 

On page 32, Mosheim refers to the church as it was in the 
years 64 and 9L On page 55, he refers io the church in the 
year 177. On page 78, he refers to the church in the year 
211. On page 80, he refers to the church in the year 249. 
On page 81, he refers to the church in the year 270. On page 
99, he refers to the church in the years 311-324. On page 
105, he refers to the christian church in the years 330-370. 
On page 134, he refers to the church in the year 421. On 
page 170, he refers to the church in the years 524-591. On 
page 176, he refers to the church in the year 650. On page 
200, he refers to the church in the year 775. On page 208, he 
refers to the church in the year 867. On page 209, he refers 
to the church in 827. On page 229, he refers to the church 
in 866. On page 236, he refers to the church in 897. On 
page 253, he refers to the church in 1090. On page 295, he 
refers to the church in 1017. On page 330, he refers to the 
church in 1148. On page 331, he relers to the church in 360- 
380. On page 371, he refers to tlie church in 1262. On 
page 375, he refers to the church in 1209. On page 383, he 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 4T 

refers to tlie cljurch in 1307. . On page 392, he refers to the 
church in 1387-1415. And on page 399, he refers to the 
church in 1472-1506. In volume second, page 35, Mosheim 
refers to the church in 1533, and on page 886 he refers to the 
church ia 1632, 1655 and 1685. 

]N"ow, who will come up and say that we have not shown 
the identity of these people from the time of the Apostles 
down to the present time ? Show me where there is a link 
out of the chain, ^o person will try to do it. 

I want next to refer to these people, and tell some of the 
things they believed. They believed just like the Eegular Bap- 
tists of to-day believe, and they frequently slate the things 
that they do not believe. In Jones's Church History, page 
310, the following occurs : " They affirm that they alone are 
the church of Christ and his disciples. The^^ declare them- 
selves to be the Apostles' successors, to have Apostolic au- 
thority and the keys of binding and loosing. They hold the 
church of Eome to be the whore of Babylon." 

Jones's Church History, page 251 : " But you should re- 
member that he only is Apostolic who is the keeper and 
guardian of the Ai)OStles' doctrine." Kow, you see they re- 
garded no person as Apostolic, only those who are the keep- 
ers and guardians ol the Apostolic doctrine. 

Page 43 of the same book : " But the problem is solved by 
admitting the scriptural account of the depravity of the 
human mind, its alienation from God, and its natural enmity 
against his truth." Did these people not believe in the doc- 
trine of total depravity ! Brother Wallace has said that I 
would say no more about the doctrine of free agency. He 
profdsses to believe the doctrine of total depravity^ Now^ I 



48 DEBATE ON 

want him to reconcile the two, aud tell me how a person could 
be totally depraved and at the same time a free agent, 

I refer you now to Jones's Church History, page 344 : ''He 
then gives a summary of their doctrinal principles, for the 
sake of which they have been persecuted, such as ' that the 
Holy Scriptures contain all things necessary to our salvation, 
and that we are called to believe only what they teach, with- 
out any regard to the authority of man ; that nothing else 
ought to be received by us except what God hath command- 
ed."' 

Then on page 410 : " In 1433, the terms contained in the 
following four articles, which goes by the name of The Bohe- 
mian Comjmctata, or terms of agreement : 

" 1. That the word of God shall be freely preached by able 
ministers, according to the Holy Scriptures, without any 
human invention." 

In Benedict's first volume, page 130, the following passage 
occurs : "The grand maxim, which is thus acknowledged to 
be the true source of all the peculiarities of the Mennonites, 
and of all the ancient Waldenses, is most fairly stated, and 
when stripped of the verbose attire with which the learned 
doctor has arrayed it, is by everv Baptist most heartily 
adopted. This maxim goes to exclude all the inventions and 
traditions of men." He says the Baptists heartily indorse 
this, which they do. 

Benedict's first volume, page 119 : " The beginning of the 
thirteenth century saw thousands of persons burned or hang- 
ed by these diabolical devices, whose sole crime was that 
they trusted only in Jesus Christ for salvation, and re- 
nounced all the vain hopes of self-righteous idolatry* and 
superstition." 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 49 

Then, I refer you to Orchard's Church History, page 135 : 
"From the blood and ashes of the first Paulican victims a 
succession of teachers and congregations repeatedly arose. 
The Greeks, to subdue them, made use both of arguments 
and arms, with all the terror of penal laws, without effecting 
their object. The great instrument of this people's multipli- 
cation was the alone use of the Xew Testament." 

Again, see Mosheim's first volume, page 42 : " The pro- 
gress of Christianity is not to be attributed to human means, 
Tjut to a divine power." That is what we believe, brethren. 

The same book, page 296 : " They declared the use of in- 
strumental music in the churches, and other religious assem- 
blies, superstitious and unlawful. They denied that the cross 
on which Christ suffered was in any respect more sacred than 
other kinds of wood, and in consequence refused to pay to it 
the smallest degree of religious worship," 



EEY. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

I AM before you again for the purpose of resuming the ar- 
gument that I commenced this morning. My brother Hardy 
has spoken to you for half an hour, and I ask you what he 
has said or done. He has quoted, in support of his position, 
from ]\fissionary Baptist works. He said he would show a 
Baptist succession from the days of the Apostles down to the 
present time. He has quoted from Jones's Church History, 
which is a Missionary Baptist work. He says it is a good 
4 



50 DEBATE ON 

book : that is so. It is a truthful book, because it is a Mis- 
sionary Baptist work, and written by a Missionary Baptist. 
Then he refers to Benedict's History, and to Orchard's 
Baptist History, which are both Missionary works, and pub- 
lished by the Missionary Baptists. iS"ow, am I here to deny 
the assertions of these books ? I think it would be more 
proper for brother Hardy, in attempting to establish his po- 
sition, to quote from works of members of his own denomi- 
nation. I want him to understand that I can hold my own 
ground on this occasion without any suggestions from him as 
to the books to be referred to. Whenever I come to the time 
of assuming the burden of proof, I propose to set up these 
very things. 

I have asked you to show whether you ever had a separate 
denomination i)rior to the year 1832. I ask you where you^ 
as a separate denomination, existed prior to that time, and 
so far I have failed to see where you have attempted to an- 
swer it. Brother Hardy, you and I were once together in 
the same church. Kow, when we were together in the same 
church, I want to ask you whether or not that church was 
the church of Christ. I want you to answer whether, when 
we were united, we were in the church of Christ. That is a 
pertinent question, and I am not here to deny the assertions 
and quotations made from Missionary Baptist works. 

Brother Hardy said that he did not reply to any argument 
of mine, from the fact that I had not turned to any of the 
passages in the Scripture that he had quoted. Well, did not 
I reply to his remarks on the subject of election and atone- 
ment, and when I presented the true teachings of our people 
on the question of atonement, and asked him to refute them^ 
did not I say that he would not answer me ? I say that by 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 51 

atonement is meant the opening up a way for the exercise of 
mercy, and that way has been opened to all the human fam- 
ily, that they might take refuge in it. The sinner has been 
invited to come and be saved, without any distinction what- 
ever. For it is said, '' He that believeth shall be saved, and 
he that believeth not shall be damned." And if a sinner is 
damned, it is because he is under the law of unbelief, and in 
consequence of that he denies the record of God. The curse 
of sin has been on all mankind, as in the beginning of the 
world, and since Cain murdered his own brother; and it has 
remained in the human family from that time until this. 

My brother asked me to answer the question why it is 
that up to 1832 we received no baptism. What does our As- 
sociation say about thaf? Does not our Association emphat- 
ically urge baptism ? I know that there are irregularities in 
our church, and I am not here to defend them. I am not 
here to say that our church has never done wrong, for I know 
better than that. I know that some of our independent 
churches have said that they on some occasions received im- 
mersion. I have stood up against that thing, and brother 
Spencer knows that I have done it in our denomination ; but 
1 am not here to defend these irregularities, ; I am here to 
defend our faith and our doctrine. 

I have asked brother Hardy to come to time, and answer 
questions I have put to him. I will do it myself after awhile, 
when I come to take up the burden of proof. He has asked 
me to reconcile total depravity and free agency. That point 
will come up in proper time. 

We will see what Watson has to say of these subjects. I 
now turn to page 519 of that book: '' These questions, whea 
properly answered, show most conclusively that we should 



52 DEBATE OX 

preach repentance towards God, and faith in the Lord Jesus 
Christ, ' to every,' to ' all men everywhere.' If we say our 
preaching is to the called of the Lord, and to them only, and 
make no distinction between the many called and the few 
chosen, we will involve the tenet of Universalism. For if we 
preach only to the 'quickened,' all must be in that state, as 
our commission and work embraces ' every creature.' " 

Now what is meant here by the word •' quicken ? " " Quick- 
en," in its primary sense, means to make right, and here in 
this connection it is used in the sense of conviction, and that 
Interpretation of it agrees with the divine word. So when a 
man arrives at the age of maturity he comes to God, and the 
divine Spirit of God quickens him, as far as this world is 
concerned; and consequently it agrees with free moral agency. 
I tell you here to-day, my brethren, that if a sinner is not 
saved, it is not God's fault. Brother Hardy has preached all 
over this country the doctrine of salvation of sinners by the 
will of God. They cannot deny that fact. Then he tells you 
that the Missionary Baptists are a very diversified people; 
that they are not in accord in their doctrine. But we are; 
we are a people in perfect harmony as regards doctrine, and 
always have been. Has that been the case with these peo- 
ple? I ask them to remember what kind of fussing and di- 
visions and schisms they have had among them. Ever since 
I have known of them they have been in trouble among them- 
selves of one kind and another. They are in perfect har- 
mony, they say. Let me ask you if you have an element 
among you of nonresurrectionism. I want you to come up 
after that and speak about your harmony. I tell you that as 
a people you have had more fusses among you than any peo- 
ple I ever knew. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 53 

I now call jour attention to Watson again, on page 509, on 
the subject of the support of ministers of the gospel: ''Where 
is the pastor who faithfully and constantly preaches the du- 
ties of the church to her pastor, or the church that fully and 
perse veringly discharges her duty towards her pastor ? Let 
him and her report themselves ; but observe, the exceptions 
will not be admitted merely on account of what they may 
have done, unless the work accords with the precepts and 
examples of the New Testament. Such an instance, I fear, 
cannot be reported. 

Brother Hardy gets up here and speaks of the case of old 
brother Fulkerson, who went to Kansas for the purpose of 
ordaining a church, and says that the brethren in Illinois 
paid his expenses. This I suppose was missionary work. A 
man is sent from one part of the country to another to help 
in the organization of a church, and his expenses are paid. 
Kow, do you denominate this missionary work? There are 
people here I know who know something about missionary 
work, and they can answer for themselves. '' How appro- 
priate and necessary is the interchange of spiritual and tem- 
poral things, as instituted by the Lord, between the pastor 
and church. This temporal relation is lost! I will not mere- 
ly refer to the texts in point, but quote them." He then goes 
on and quotes the texts to show the word of God in this mat- 
ter, showing that God has ordained the support of the min- 
istry. Proceeding, Watson says: "The preacher does not 
become a beggar until his demands transcend his scriptural 
rights, nor a hireling, until his wages exceed Bible rights." 
Now, what is the Bible right? Who knows better what it 
costs to support a minister than the minister himself? Who 
knows better what it costs to support a mechanic than the 



54 DEBATE ON 

mechanic himself? Who knows better than a contractor 
what it costs to build a railroad ? Who knows better how 
much it costs to build a ship than the builder of it? And 
who knows better what it costs to support the minister than 
the minister himself? He knows, and God's divine word 
requires that he should have his support. " The preacher 
does not become a beggar until his demands transcend his 
scriptural rights." So, if a preacher takes a dollar from his 
church, is he a beggar? This is one point in brother Hardy's 
chain that I think is broken ; and my understanding is that if 
one link in a chain is broken, that the whole fabric is de- 
stroyed. If you spoil one note in music you spoil the har- 
mony, and if one of their preachers take a dollar from their 
churches it spoils their whole professions. Then why is it 
that these people vilify us for doing the very thing that their 
own writers say is right, and which they do themselves. I 
will proceed with Watson: " While defending and maintain- 
ing his just pastoral rights, he is no beggar, cap in hand, 
beseeching his brethren for some poor pittance or other, but 
a dignified, independent asserter of his just claims, and 
should be so regarded by all who have ears to hear the com- 
mandments of the Lord, or a heart to practice them. How 
many debts of this kind, with accumulated interest, rest at 
this time as so many dark spots on many of our churches! 
How many preachers are there who are toiling five days in a 
week who are not like brother Hardy and myself, somewhat 
independent of support from their people. I know I have 
never received one hundred dollars of pay for pastoral work 
in my life. I support myself, and I do not want any payj 
and yet we are charged all over this land and country with 
being hirelings. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 55 

I^Tow, says Watson: "Their payment would loosen many 
pastoral hands that are toiling five days in the week, without 
time for reading or study, to preach two ! Many hearts that 
are burdened now almost beyond endurance under a sense of 
the neglect of brethren, would be made joyful; the way of 
pastoral duty would no longer be the way of domestic loss 
ard neglect! The only time which many of our preachers 
have to read and study the word of God, is after a hard day's 
work, when they should be asleep." I tell you that that is 
the case with many of us. I know 1 have sat up many a 
night until twelve o'clock studying and laboring in God's 
service after 1 have put in a hard day's labor. I have often 
labored five days in the week and studied at night, when I 
should have been asleep in order to qualify myself for the 
service of God. I would, if I could not be the best preacher, 
that I might be the worst, and I took these hours, when I 
should have been asleep, in order to study the divine word 
of God, so that I might qualify myself. And such things, 
Dr. Watson says, are " as so many dark spots," which if re- 
moved would enable many of our preachers to go forth and 
give light to the world. That is the testimony of your own 
preacher and writer. ^' Many worthy pastors are in this con- 
dition, and many brethren who seem otherwise worthy, 
appear not to have eyes to see this state of things, the fruit 
of their reprehensible neglect. To all such I am constrained 
to say, go read the ninth chapter of First Corinthians, read 
the entire chapter, read it attentively, and if you can, after 
its perusal, lay the holy volume down with a good con- 
science, unless in pauper circumstances, you must be either 
a worshiper of mammon, and not of God, or a reader, and 
not a doer of the word. Let none suppose that I am con- 



56 DEBATE ON 

tending for my own advantage." Dr. Watson did not need 
that, he had plenty; but there were others of his brethren 
that he knew were in just the position that he has described 
here, and that is why he spoke so earnestly. 

Xow, on page 512, he says further: " The Kew Testament 
has no fixed rates, but only plain precepts; gospel charity, 
which is love, will assess high rates; covetousness, which is 
idolatry, low ones, if any at al! — perhaps reproaches only." 
So 1 say that these people here when their ministers demand 
money, instead of giving up the money for their support cast 
reproaches on them. " This unscriptural gag must be re- 
sisted before the muzzle will be taken off." Here he says 
that the preacher must speak out, not only on their own 
authority, but on the Lord's, which is the best authority in 
the world. ^'Preachers must speak out on this subject, not 
on their own authority, but on the Lord's ! IS'ot in their own 
words, but in the plain, strong ones of the Bible; not as re- 
ligious beggars of the day, but as faithful pastors. The cor- 
rection of this error, now causing so many hearts to mourn^ 
must, after all, begin in the pulpit." 

Page 513: " Occasionally a circular letter written on the 
subject has appeared in the minutes of our Associations, but 
they have been utterly disregarded." oS'ow, says Watson,, 
the matter was brought up in a circular letter, but has been 
utterly disregarded in their associations, i^ow, as there are 
so many Baptist brethren standing before me to-day I 
would like you to tell me one thing: When you have had a 
circular letter iu your Association ; I would like to know 
when you ever heard of one; did you ever hear of any in the 
Eed River Association on that subject? Just answer me 
that question. I know I must seem to talk in a fighting 



OHURCH IDENTITY. 57 

mood, but I cannot help that. I have my faults I know, and 
I would to God it were otherwise. I do not want to hurt 
anybody's feelings. I only wish to present the truth, and I 
propose to do it, and I leave it to my brother to answer these 
questions that I have propounded to him, and I give him 
just two days and a half in which to do it. 



ELDER HARDY SAID: 



Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am 
again before you to resume the discussion here. My brother 
seems to rely greatly on Dr. Watson, and it would seem, 
from his actions and remarks here to-day, that he prefers 
Dr. Watson to the Bible. ]S"ow, I think I have seen Dr. 
Watson's work once in my life, and I will take it up at this 
time; and if I do not silence his battery upon that subject, 
it will be a wonder to me. 

Mr. Wallace evidently wants to impress it on the minds of 
this people that Dr. Watson, being identified with the Bap- 
tists, took the whole Baptist system. That is not true; he 
did not do it. 

Watson, page 43: ^'Primitive christians would not have 
preferred the charges against a ijrimitive church which mod- 
em ones do against this church. I will mention some of these 
charges : 

" 1. That we believe in particular election. 

'•2. That repentance and faith are the gifts of God. 

" 3. That we believe in the effectual calling of God's elect. 



58 DEBATE ON 

" 4. The final i)erseverance of believers. 

" 5. Baptism of believers only, and that by immersion only. 

" 6. That we practice feet washing. 

^' 7. In not doing anything on man's authority. 

"8. And that good works are the fruits of God's gracious 
work on the heart of the believer, and not the cause of it. 

''To all of these charges we plead guilty." 

Watson, page 60: " 'Strait is the gate,' and who can en- 
large, open or shut it? 'ISTarrow is the way,' and who can 
widen or alter it? Tew there be that find it,''and who can 
add to their number! To attempt to do these things would 
be worse folly than to essay to widen the ocean and multiply 
the stars of heaven." 

Watson, page 66: "The Missionary Baptists may say that 
infant baptism is a part of the Catholic system 5 but the Pedo- 
baptist may with as much propriety say that a missionary 
system based on human authority is also a part of the eccle- 
siastical policy of Catholics." 

Page 83 : " ' Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel 
to every creature; and he that believeth and is baptized shall 
be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned.' Every 
creature, bond and free, male and female, all sorts, all grades, 
from the king to the peasant, in all countries, and in all times 
and ages, are included in this broad and general commission. 
But, observe, preaching the gospel according to this commis- 
sion, latitudinous as it is, never did nor ever will add to the 
number of God's chosen ones." 

Page 105: " Our denominational views of personal and un- 
conditional election were plainly taught to them by Paul. 
Their state of utter depravity before conversion is what we 
now contend for. Their calling was of God, as we say ours 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 59 

was. Their ministry was of God, without the intervention.of 
missionary societies, as ours is.'' 

Page 106: ''Who ever saw a Baptist of the old order, in 
fellowship with his brethren, in a ' Poor-house V Who ever 
saw one begging bread ? Who ever saw one hiring himself 
to preach for a modern institution? Who ever met one on a 
mission of proselyting % Answer." 

Page 125: "The soul that is saved by grace, must admit 
that it is by the grace, the very grace given for its salvation 
personally in Christ before the world began, and that through 
Christ it never fails ; a failure of grace would be equal to a 
failure of Christ!" 

Page 141: '"Iknaw them,' said the Savior. He knows 
them in their day and times in Africa as well as in England 
or America. He will certainly bring them in as if they were 
born in either of these christian countries. His foreknowl- 
edge and i)redestination have the same connection with them 
in their calling and justification, that they have with those 
in the most enlightened christian countries." 

Page 164: " We cannot, therefore, go in fellowship with a 
modern order of Baptists who have instituted, on human au- 
thority, an assembly, governed by enactments of their own, 
and called a general association. Through this assembly 
modern missionary operations are performed in a manner 
which Primitive Baptists never practiced." IS'ow, brother 
Wallace, Hi;. Watson notes the truth, does he not? 

Page 225 : " Suppose that all nations were taught the literal 
truths of the gospel, what would then be necessary? Would 
a ' demonstration of the Spirit ' take any other way but that 
of election, predestination and foreordination? If not, some- 
thing besides preachiug is essentially necessary, by which we 



60 DEBATE ON 

discover that preaching is different from all other kinds of 
public speaking. Its success depends more on the election 
and foreordination of God than anything else." That sounds 
something like old Hard-shell doctrine, doesn't it? This 
writer is evidently a Missionary and a Hard-shell both, for he 
preaches both ways. Now, if a witness comes up and testi- 
fies on one side, and then testifies upon the other side, I ask 
those here now if his testimony is worth anything. Should 
it not be thrown out of court? Yet brother Wallace tells me 
that I am quoting from his histories. Yery good. 

I want now to refer you to Mosheim's first volume, page 
296, where he says that the Baptists " declared instrumental 
music in the churches, and other religious assemblies, super- 
stitious and unlawful." What! regard instrumental music in 
their churches as superstition ! How do the Missionary Bap- 
tists regard that thing to-day? If this is Missionary Baptist 
testimony, I want to know if the Missionary Baptists of to- 
day have not departed from their ancient principles, and if 
it is not proved by this book. Do not they have instrumental 
music in their churches? 

I will now carry you to Camp's history, which is a Mission- 
ary work. 298th page: ''The learned in human learning do 
commonly and for the most part err, and know not the truth, 
but persecute it, and the professors of it; and therefore are 
no further to be followed than we see them agree with truth." 
And now, brethren, take that advice, and do not follow any 
further than is laid down here. 

In the same book, on page 334, the following passage oc- 
curs: " Christ's true ministers have not their learning and 
wisdom from men, or from universities or human schools, for 
human learning, arts and sciences are not essential to the 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 61 

making of a true minister; but only the gift of God, which 
cannot be bought with silver or gold. And, also, as they 
have freely received the gift of God, so they do freely ad- 
minister \ they do not preach for hire, for gain, or filthy lucre. 
They are not like false teachers, who look for gain from their 
•quarters, who eat the fat, and clothe themselves with the 
wool, and kill them that are fed; those that put not into their 
mouths they prepare war against." 

I will refer to Mosheim again on this subject, page 61, first 
volume: '^ The christian system, as it was hitherto taught, 
preserved its native and beautiful simplicity, and was com- 
prehended in a small number of articles. The public teachers 
inculcated no other doctrines than those which are contained 
in what is commonly called the Apostles' Creed." 

Page 227. I will read from here a clause of the articles of 
faith, and the belief of the Baptists as they were in the year 
860, over one thousand years ago: " That God did not desire 
or will the salvation of all mankind, but that of the elect 
only; and that Christ did not suifer death for the whole 
human race, but for those persons only whom God has pre- 
destined to eternal salvation." Now, is not that something 
like our Old Baptists of to-day preach? Brother Wallace 
said that he never knew any Old Baptists until the year 1832, 
but here we have in the year 860 a people that believed this 
•thing, and were persecuted for it to such an extent that they 
had to resort to dens and caves of the earth for protection. 
I say that that is the very identical doctrine that the Eegular 
Baptists preach to-day. 

Then turn to Jones's Church History, page 323, where you 
will find set forth the articles of faith of the Waldenses. 
Brother Wallace tells you that this, too, is a Missionary 



62 DEBATE ON 

Baptist work^ but it would be hard for me to believe that, 
simply from the fact that it was written long prior to the 
time that there were any Missionary Baptists. I will read a 
few clauses of these articles of faith as set forth by these peo- 
I)le in the year 1120. They are tolerably lengthy, and I will 
not read them all, but I will commence with the first article : 

" 1. We believe and firmly maintain all that is contained 
in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly called the 
Apostles' Creed, and we regard as heretical whatever is in- 
consistent with the said twelve articles. 

"2. We believe that there is one God, the Father, Son, 
and Holy Spirit. 

" 3. We acknowledge for sacred canonical scriptures the 
books of the Holy Bible. (Here follows the title of each, 
exactly conformable to our received canon, but which it is 
deemed, on that account, quite unnecessary to particularize.) 

"1. The books above mentioned teach us: That there is 
ONE God, almighty, unbounded in wisdom, and infinite in 
goodness, and who in his goodness has made all things. For 
he created Adam after his own image and likeness. But 
through the enmity of the devil and his own disobedience, 
Adam fell, sin entered into the world, and we became trans- 
gressors in and by Adam. 

" o. That Christ had been promised to the fathers who re- 
ceived the law, to the end that, knowing their sin by the law, 
and their unrighteousness and insufficiency, they might de- 
sire the coming of Christ to make satisfaction for their sins, 
and to accomplish the law by himself. 

" 6. That at the time appointed of the Father, Christ was 
born, a time when iniquity everywhere abounded, to make it 
manifest that it was not for the sake of any good in ourselves, 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 63 

for all were sinners, but that he, who is true, might display 
his grace and mercy towards us. 

" 7. That Christ is our life, and truth, and peace, and 
righteousness, our shepherd and advocate, our sacrifice and 
peace, who died for the salvation of all who should believe, 
and rose again for their justification." 

I will then skip to the 10th and 11th articles which are as 
follows : 

" 10. Moreover, we have ever regarded all the inventions 
of men (in the affairs of religion) as an unspeakable abomina- 
tion before God; such as the festival days and vigils of saints, 
and what is called holy water, the abstaining from flesh on 
certain days, and such like things, but above all, the masses. 

" 11. We hold in abhorence all human inventions, as pro- 
ceeding from antichrist, which produces distress, and are 
prejudicial to the liberty of the mind." 

Then I will read the 12th article, and I will call your atten- 
tion to it. 

" 12. We consider the Sacraments as signs of holy things, 
or as the visible emblems of invisible blessings. We regard 
it as proper and even necessary, that believers use these sym- 
bols or visible forms when it can be done. ^Notwithstanding 
which, we maintain that believers may be saved without 
these signs, when they have neither place nor opportunity of 
observing them. 

" 13. We acknowledge no Sacraments (as of divine appoint- 
ment) but baptism and the Lord's supper. 

" 14. We honor the secular powers with subjection, obedi- 
ence, promptitude, and payment." 

Now, I want you to notice these articles for a moment. I 
suppose my time is about up, and I will be as brief as pos- 



64 DEBATE ON 

sible. You will notice that this people mentioned here in 
the year 1120 positively declared that they regarded the in- 
ventions of men, not only a portion of the inventions of men, 
but that " we regard the inventions of men as an unspeak- 
-able abomination before God." x^Tow, the question is. Where 
are the people to-day that regard the inventions of men as 
an unspeakable abomination before God? You know that 
you cannot find them outside of the Eegular Baptists. They 
>are the only people that stand on the principles of the Bible. 
They are the only people that stand on the principles main- 
tained and as set forth by the ancient Baptists. 

My brother asked me whether we had ever made the ar- 
ticles of faith a test of fellowship. ISTow, I just ask him, inas- 
much as he is in the negative in this discussion, to tell me 
the object of the Baptists writing out and publishing to the 
world their articles of faith. I want him to tell me what their 
motive was — what they had in view. 

There is another article of faith that comes in connection 
here, but I am afraid I will not have time to read it to-day, 
and T will leave that until to-morrow morning. However, I 
wish to speak a little in regard to the articles of faith that I 
have referred to. 

I understand that when people write out their articles of 
faith and publish them to the world, their object is to set 
forth, the doctrinal sentiments that they as a denomination 
profess to believe; and if that is not the object of the articles 
of faith of the Baptists now, and if it was not the object of 
the Baptists anciently, just tell me what was the object. 
l^oWj these people were persecuted, and history says that 
they had to resort to dens and caves of the earth in order to 
hide themselves from their enemies. Yet we find that while 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 65 

this persecution was raging against that people, that they 
wrote these articles of faith and published them to the world 
in order to let their enemies know what they did believe. I 
take it that they did this, simply from the fact that they 
were misrepresented, just as the Eegular Baptists of to-day 
are misrepresented. They were evil spoken of and misrep- 
resented. And I say to my brother Wallace, that when he 
speaks of the misrepresentations by our people of his, it 
would come with better grace if his people would tell the 
truth about the Eegular Baptists, and would not persecute 
them as they do. He has stated a great many things, and 
among them he has said that we were opposed to preaching 
to sinners. Let me tell you now, that no jjersou has ever 
heard me say in the pulpit that I would refuse in any instance 
to preach to the sinner. I tell you, when I preach. I preach 
to the whole congregation, no matter how it is. I would not 
•discriminate between my congregation. He says that when 
we preach, we preach only to the sheep. Isow, when did you 
ever hear a Eegular Baptist use such an expression? I say 
when I preach, I preach that the congregation may be bene- 
fited, and I preach to all that are within the sound of my 
voice. I have never refused to do that in my life; and, more 
than that, I have never refused to preach to a sinner. True, 
we do not single them out. There are portions of the Bible 
that apply to the sinner directly, I know, and there are other 
portions that apply to the believer; and when it applies to 
one, it does not apply to the other, as the scripture is written. 
But these people go further, and in dividing the word of 
truth they give the honest portion to the sinner. ]S"ow we 
cwant to stop right where the Bible stops. When we come to 
5 



66 DEBATE ON 

the part of the Bible applicable to the sinner, we apply it to 
him ; and when we come to the part applicable to the believer^ 
we give that to him. 

In this connection I want to reply to one quotation made 
by brother Wallace. He quoted in support of his position, 
'^ 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any man hear 
my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him." Brother 
Wallace says that that was applied to the sinner, that it was 
the sinner that was required to open the door, and he would 
receive the Lord. But what does the Bible say? In the 
same text it shows distinctly that he was then speaking to 
the churches, and that text was applied to the churches of 
Christ, and not to the sinner. And it is api^lied to the church 
to-day; and if we are in disobedience, it. is our duty to open 
our doors and receive the Lord Jesus Christ, and nothing 
else. 

I am going to prove to you that these people that I have 
been speaking of have come down from the days of the Apos- 
tles, and I will show it to you by the best testimony in the 
world. So far as Mr. W^allace's authorities have gone, I have 
only to say, taking an apt illustration, that when your oppo- 
nent in court brings up his witnesses, and you take these 
witnesses and prove your own position, I want to know if 
that is not the best evidence; or if his witnesses come up 
first and testify in his behalf and then testify in my behalf, 
is it not proper, and is it not according to common sense, that 
they should be thrown out of court? But I tell you that they 
testify in my behalf, and not in his behalf. I say distinctly 
that he cannot trace his people back to the days of the Apos- 
tles, because there are no histories in existence by which he 
can support his claim. 



KEV. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : I am be- 
fore you to resume my argument. I asked brother Hardy 
awhile ago to argue his own side of the question, but he seems 
determined to wander off into mine. 

Now, as to the point of discriminationj has not he contra- 
dicted himself? When I made the statement that they did 
discriminate, did I state what was untrue! IsTo. First he 
says they do discriminate; now he says they don't I tell 
you I have been under their preaching since I was a boy, and 
1 know what I am talking about when I say fliey do discrimi- 
nate. I ask this people now if the statement made here that 
they do discriminate is a truthful statement. I will leave it 
to the Baptist brethren assembled here to-day. I quoted from 
Dr. Watson to prove that point, and now he brings up this 
same author to prove that he (Watson) did not agree in all 
they believe. I have taken Dr. Watson and proved their de- 
viations; and notwithstanding this, brother Hardy says his 
denomination preaches more gospel than any other. I know 
that Watson heaps his vituperations on the Missionaries, but 
what does brother Hardy now say? He says if a man testi- 
fies on one side, and then turns around and testifies on the 
other side, that his testimony must be thrown out of court. 
You are going to throw Watson out, are you? Pitch him 
out of doors, if you dare, and say he is not worthy of belief. 
I know that while Watson goes on to show your deviations, 
be at the same time protests against our denomination. As 



68 DEBATE ON 

to Mosheim, he is a Lutheran missionary, and not a Baptist 
at all. He quotes Dr. Watson about the sheep in Africa. 
How came they there? Dr. Watson says that they will be 
preached to; he says, " If we don't carry this gospel to all 
the world, there is a people that will do it." Well, he has 
gone over to Africa and gotten up the sheep there. Were 
there any sheep there before the gospel was preached there? 
How many believers had you, brother Hardy, among them, 
before the gospel was i^reached to them? I do not think 
brother Hardy will answer that question. I asked him awhile 
ago to answer me as to what was the difference between the 
American and the heathen nations. He has not answered 
that, nor any of the other questions I propounded to him. I 
said before I would give him two and a half days to answer 
it in; I will now extend it to three days. This congregation 
knows the questions I put, among them being, Were we in 
the church of Christ when we were united? I repeat, he has 
not answered one of these questions, nor will he. 

He has mentioned something about articles of faith. I 
asked him in a previous discourse if they had ever made arti- 
cles of faith a test of fellowship. He turns around and asks 
me as to what was the object of getting up articles of faith. 
He answered that question himself. He thought I could not 
come up to it, and so he would answer it himself. He says 
there were Baptists from the days of the Apostles up to the 
time of writing these articles of faith he has referred to. 
Well, how did they get along without articles of faith up to 
that time? How many years was it? I believe he said some- 
where about eleven hundred. They had no articles of feith 
up to the year 1100. I^Tow, I want to know what became of 
the Baptists during that time when they had no articles of 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 69 

faith. They must have been in a strange predicament. I 
will show you what kept them together when I reach that 
point, when I reach the burden of proof. 

Brother Hardy then talks about the " inventions of men,'^ 
and goes back to the Waldenses, and says that his people are 
the only people that ever stood on that ground. When did 
you see these inventions in the Baptist Church? You say 
they never commenced until 1816. That is what your history 
says. You go back of the " inventions of men" among the 
Waldenses. Were these " inventions *' of the Waldenses the 
'' inventions " that you heap your vituperations on our people 
for to-day? I say they were not. They say it is prejudicial 
to the mind. Is there anything prejudicial to the mind in 
christian societies? 

Now, Dr. Watlbn (page 182) after referring to the scriptu- 
ral text, " Other sheep I havej them also I will bring," goes 
on to say: " I find that the great extravagance of many who 
have engaged in this work has had a very bad influence on 
these people, and probably prevented them in some instances 
from performing their duty toward the ' other sheep ' which 
may be in distant countries. And I. really fear should any 
one profess a call of this kind, he would not receive the fel- 
lowship and assistance which he would be entitled to." 

What do you say to that? Suppose one of your own de- 
nomination were to get up and tell you that he had a call for 
him to go to preach the gospel, and he were to ask you to 
send him there, what would yoa do? I know what you would 
do. You would repudiate him. You are repudiating that 
kind of work now, and I might use stronger language, I 
might say, calumniating. -'Thus, I fear," goes on Watson, 



70 DEBATE ON 

" they do not act as did those who heeded all the coinniaad- 
ments of the Lord." 

I will show you that that ancient people did go out to 
the heathen nations, and I will show you that they were 
paid to go there, and that they had a financial agent to col- 
lect funds for that very purpose. I will show that the churches 
sent them there, one church singly, and churches combined. 
I will prove all of this when the time comes; I am not yet 
ready for it. 

Ifow, I quote from Watson, page 418: "History teaches 
us that all nations which have been favored with the word of 
God have made far greater advances in civilization than 
those which have not. The history of those countries where 
the word of God was not known is a sad one. They were 
debased by all kinds of superstition and idolatry." In view 
of this, I ask you, brother Hardy, why your people are to- 
day heaping your vituperations on Bible societies. Dr. Wat- 
son says that those people who have received the word of 
God are made intelligent, more civilized and more developed 
than nations where the word has not been sent; and yet your 
I)eople vilify Bible societies, the best means known for spread- 
ing the gospel. Your preachers say, Away with your Bible 
societies and Sunday classes. What are your objections to 
Bible societies? Do you object to people meeting together? 
No, but it is their work. What is their work? Their work 
is to publish Bibles at the cheapest possible rate. That so- 
ciety has published fall fourteen million copies of the Bible, 
and employ people to sell them at five cents for the New 
Testament and the whole Bible for twenty-five cents. Not 
only that, but they are given away to men and women too 
poor to buy them. You are opposed to the work of such a 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 71 

society! You are opposed to the free will offerings of our 
denomination that send contributions that enable the word 
of God to be sold for a mere nothing. If a copy of the Bible 
had to be written, what would it cost you? The material 
alone would cost five hundred dollars, and to employ a man 
to write it at twenty dollars a month that would add two 
hundred and forty dollars, supposing it could be done in a 
year. But by the work of this society this Holy Bible is 
possible of publication at twenty-five cents a copy all over 
fhe world. Nay, more than this. Brother Hardy himself, 
while condemning this society, actually preaches from a book 
published by it. Why? Because it can be bought for a mere 
nothing. But notwithstanding all this he, and his people, 
heap their vituperations and vilifications on us because we 
support such a cause. Because we support a cause that dis- 
tributes the Bible, translated into many different languages, 
for a mere nothing, you revile and vilify us in almost every 
sermon you preach. And that is not all. If a man of your 
denomination gives a dollar to this work, you church him for 
it. And that is not all. Here up in Louisville there is an 
Orphan's Home, taking care of I don't know how many poor, 
fatherless and motherless little ones, feeding and clothing 
them, and when our brethren down here made a contribution 
to that institution one of your brethren made light of it. 
Yes, and to-day you are heaping your vituperations on us 
because we believe in this thing. If one of your members 
gives a dollar to one of these Missionary Societies you turn 
him out of your church, but if he spends a dollar in a grog 
shop to the detriment of his health and morals, so he does not 
get drunk, you retain him in the church. 
By Elder Hardy — I object to any such manner of language. 



i'2 DEBATE ON 

The Moderator sustained the objectioD, and called the- 
speaker to order. 

Eev. Mr. Wallace resumed — I may have spoken very en- 
thusiastically just now, but I ask the question if the state- 
ment I made is not true. I do not propose to make any state- 
ment here that is not true, and if I fail to prove what I have 
charged, I will cheerfully take it back. I do not wish to 
make any statement here that I cannot prove. I refer to 
Benedict (page 936): "A large amount of their documents 
are before me which contain the resolutions and decrees of 
their churches and associations referred to above; from these 
it appears that if any of their members shall unite with any 
society for the promotion of the cause of benevolence or moral 
reform, they shall, ipso facto ^ be expelled from their fellow- 
ship and communion; the missionary, Bible, tract, Sunday 
school and temperance societies are specially named; and 
generally a sweeping clause is added, embracing all the so- 
called benevolent institutions of the day ! These prohibitions 
extend not only to actual membership in these bodies, but to 
any contributions of their own personal funds for their sup- 
port! Ko collections for any of these objects can be made in 
any of the churches where they have the control, nor are 
their members allowed to cast in their mites when the box 
goes round in any neighboring congregation in which they 
may be present." 

Now, will you say I have made a false statement ? I claim 
that I have proved my assertion. But that is nothing to 
what I have got on you. 

By Elder Hardy — But how in regard to the whiskey 
matters? 

By Mr. Wallace — I just remarked that a man might spend. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 73 

his money in a grog shop to the annoyance of his family and' 
the injury of his health and to the demoralization of youth, 
and so he did not get drunk he could remain in your church. 

By Elder Hardy — I will ask you on that as to what your 
denomination does? 

By Mr. Wallace — I know that we fail in a great many 
things. I told you that I was not here to defend the irregu- 
larities of our church. I know we are too slack, but while 
that is so, we do not heap vituperations on other denomina- 
tions. My firm conviction is that Baptist Churches today 
ought to exclude every man who enters a grog shop. I have 
advocated that and have been vilified over and over again 
for it. I know that. I repeat that if I have misrepresented 
anybody on this point, it is not my intention 5 I don't want 
to»do it. What I object to is that while our people are doing 
work in helping to sustain these institutions of benevoleftce, 
you are heaping your vituperations on us and them. You 
cannot deny that. I am satisfied that as a people you have 
not studied it, or you could not ih the name of God and hu- 
manity stand up and take the position you do. You have 
first been led by your ministers, whose object it is to cry us 
down. In the name of God what can be the objection to the 
translation of the Bible into other languages. Is there a man 
in this house who could use the Bible in its original tongue? 
What could we do if it had not been translated into English? 
And the work that this very Bible Society is doing, you re- 
ceive the benefit of. 

l^ow, first let me say to you old anti-mission brethren, if, 
when I make a statement that you think is not true, you call 
my attention to it. If I am wrong I will make amends. Be- 
fore God, I will. God knows I am not here for anything but 



74 DEBATE ON 

the truth. I am here to defend the truth, and not for a vic- 
tory over my opponent. I am not here, God knows, to mis- 
lead you. 

I have yet five minutes before my half hour's time is up, 
but it is too short to take up the line of my argument and do 
anything. Therefore I will leave it until to-morrow. I shall 
only say to you, brethren, that I have taken no exception 
because a statement I made has been called in question. It 
is due to you and it is due to me, that when I state anything 
that is not true that you should say so here, and not wait 
until my back is turned and then say I did not speak the truth. 

To-mgrrow I will take up Coffey's History. Some of you 
have that book in this country, and you might just bring 
them along with you to-morrow morning. I like coffee gen- 
erally, but this Coffey is a little too weak for me. This Cof- 
fey's History is a book that professes to give the differences 
between brother Hardy's denomination and mine, how the 
separation took place, and so on. I think it will take me all 
day to-morrow to treat of' Coffey 5 the next day will be de- 
voted to the Pedo works, and after that I will assume the 
burden of the argument, and answer these questions I have 
put to brother Hardy. He, I am sure, will not attempt to 
answer them. 

[Here the first day's debate closed, and the audience was dismissed with 
the benediction, to meet to-morrow morning.] 



' 



BLDER HARDY SAID: 

[Second Day.] 
[The Moderator called the meeting to order, and after prayer, read the 
rules governing the discussion.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am 
again before yoii to resume this discussion, and I trust I will 
have your attention. 

The first thing that I will notice is the remark that I made 
on yesterday, as the congregation knows, that brother Ful- 
kerson was sent to Kansas to assist in the organization of a 
church there. For fear that what I said might have been 
misunderstood by the congregation, I wish to say further 
that I did not mean that brother Fulkerson was hired to go 
there; I did not mean that he was sent there by a missionary 
board, or anything of that description, but that the brethren 
in southern Illinois sent him there for the purpose I have 
stated, and bore his expenses, which amounted to, I think, 
fifty dollars. 

After that explanation I will resume. The brother states 
in regard to the subject of atonement that it was made acces- 
sible to all the race of men. Kow, I want him to come out 
in his next speech and tell this people whether he believes 
atonement was universal or special, whether Christ redeemed 
the race of men when he died on the cross or whether he did 
not. He says that his association rejects the Old Baptist 
baptism. I want him to tell this congregation when they did 
that. He says the Old Baptists, so-called, are only forty- 



76 DEBATE ON 

eight years old. I asked him yesterday, if it was not known 
previous to 1832, why it was when this new institution sprung 
■ up that they began at that very time to receive their baptism. 
He tells us now that his association di^ not do it. When did 
they refuse to do it ? If there was no Such a people as the 
Old Baptists known until 1832, I want to know what it 
was caused the confusion and division in the Eed Eiver As- 
sociation in 1854. Now, let him answer that question. 

Then he comes in on the subject of repentance. I want him 
to answer this one question in regard to repentance. I want 
to know if repentance is a voluntary act of the creature, or is 
it the gift of God. I would like him to answer that question. 

Then he comes and accuses the Old Baptists of drinking 
rather too much whiskey. The Baptists have been accused 
of that from the days of the Apostles, and even the Apostles 
themselves were accused of being drunkards. For don't you 
know when Peter stood up that the people accused him of 
being drunk, and he remarked that he was not drunk? And 
you will remember, too, that they accused Christ of being 
gluttonous and a wine-bibber. Now, why do they accuse us 
of it ? Simply because we won't organize temperance socie- 
ties in our churches. Well, what use have we for such so- 
cieties ? Let me tell you, if the church of the Lord Jesus 
Christ and the law of God is not sufficient to make a sober 
man of a person, I want to know what will do it. What do 
we want with temperance societies in our churches? Is that 
any object of our churches? The Apostle says that the 
Spirit says to have temperance, and if we have the Spirit it 
is enough to make us temperate men. How did the Baptists 
get along without temperance societies away back yonder? 






CHURCH IDENTITY. 77 

for the first temperance society was organized in 1824, as 
you can ascertain by referring to Benedict, page 674. 

I say that we claim to stand right on the primitive ground 
of the Old Baptists ; and as regards Free Masonry, I want 
to know whether the Baptists anciently received Free Masons 
into fellowship. History says they did not. These Mis- 
sionary Baptists claim that they are the church of Christ 
simply from the fact that they send missionaries and em- 
ployees through the world to preach the gospel to every crea- 
ture. Well, we find that Christ called his preachers together 
and sent them out, and that they went, but not on the Mis- 
sionary Baptist i)lan; their system is on a new patent. But 
if we claim, or if they claim, that they are right, simply from 
the fact that they send out missionaries, let me tell you that 
the Eoman Catholics have the first and greatest claim to be 
the church of Christ. 

Then, on yesterday, after reading some articles of faith, I 
asked the question. What was the object of the Baptists 
anciently in writing their articles of faith and publishing 
them to the w^orld? I told you that the object was to set 
forth the doctrines and sentiments that they profess to be- 
lieve. Brother Wallace said that I answered the question 
myself. Does he admit that that is the truth of the matter, 
that that is the object? I ask him the question now distinct- 
ly, Does he believe that was the object? Does he stand on 
the principle of these articles of faith to-day ? 

In Jones's History of the Church, on page 325, are set forth 
the articles of faith of the Waldenses. These articles are 
tolerably lengthy, and I will only have time to refer to a few 
clauses, such as set forth the doctrine of that people. The 
second clause reads: 



78 DEBATE ON 

'• 2. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son and image of 
the Father, that in him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells, 
and that by him alone we know the Father. He is our Me- 
diator and Advocate; nor is there any other name given 
under heaven by which we can be saved. In his name alone 
we call upon the Father, using no other prayers than those 
contained in the Holy Scriptures, or such as are in substance 
agreeable thereunto. 

'' 3. We believe in the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, pro- 
ceeding from the Father and from the Son; by whose inspi- 
ration we are taught to pray; being by him renewed in the 
spirit of bur minds; who creates us anew unto good works, 
and from whom we receive the knowledge of the truth. 

" 4. We believe that there is one holy church, comprising 
the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have ex- 
isted from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the 
end thereof. Of this church the Lord Jesus Christ is the 
Head ; it is governed by his word and guided by the Holy 
Spirit. In the church it behooves all christians to have fel- 
lowship. For her he [Christ] prays incessantly, and his 
prayer for it is most acceptable to God, without which indeed 

there could be no salvation. 

# * * ' # * * 

" 10. We contend that all those in whom the fear of God 
dwells will thereby be led to please him, and to abound in the 
good works [of the gospel] which God hath before ordained 
that we should walk in them, which are love, joy, peace, pa- 
tience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, sobriety, and the other 
good works enforced in the Holy Scriptures. 

" 11. On the other hand, we confess that we consider it to 
be our duty to beware of false teachers, whose object it is to 



I] 






CHURCH IDENTITY. 79 

divert the miods of men from the true worship of God, and 
to lead them to place their confidence in the creatures, as 
well as to depart from the good works of the gospel, and to 
regard the inventions of men. 

" 12. We take the Old and Kew Testaments for the rule of 
our life, and we agree with the general confession of faith 
contained in [what is usually termed] the Apostles' Creed." 

Now, these articles, it seems, would identify these people 
with the Apostles, because here is an expression of faith in 
accordance with theirs, i^^ow I want to notice one clause 
here in particular, that is, in regard to the minister : that it 
is the duty of such to feed the flock of God. Did not my 
brother claim that I as a Baptist had departed from the truth 
of the Son of God? Now here are the Waldeuses away back 
yonder, that stand up and declare that that is the duty of the 
X^reacher, to feed the flock of God. 

Orchard, page 291: "Art. 25. That the church is a com- 
pany of the faithful, who, having been elected before the 
foundation of the world, and called with a holy calling, come 
to unite themselves to follow the word of God, believing 
whatsoever he teacheth them, and living in his fear. Art. 
26. And that all the elect are upheld and preserved by the 
power of God in such sort, that they all persevere in the faith 
to the end, and remain united in the holy church, as so many 
liv^ing members thereof." Now, brethren, this was the faith 
of the Baptists in the year 1655. 

Benedict, page 90. Here is a Baptist away back yonder — 
that was what you call an "Anabaptist" that was speaking 
just before his death — and these are the words he used: " O 
God! I entreat thee for thy grace that thou wilt not impute 
to me my sins, since Chri&t made satisfaction for them before 



80 ■ DEBATE ON 

I was born. I was tby eDemy, and thou lovedst me, accepted 
me in grace, and hast given for my redemption the innocent 
blood of thy beloved Son, although I am frequently temj)ted 
by the besetting sins of the flesh. For when I would do 
good, evil was present with me." Now, does not he talk like 
an Old Baptist? And I say here that 1 believe he was one. 

So now I have traced the Baptists, as I understand it, from 
the days of the Apostles up to the year 1544 5 and I am now 
going to show that there was a people away back yonder, 
and I want to show you that they were the originals, and that 
time rolled around and they united with the Baptists. 

See Benedict, second volume, page 37; and I am now go- 
ing to speak of the Separate Baptists: " The appellation of 
Separates first began to be given to a set of Pedobaptist re- 
formers, whose evangelical zeal was produced by the instru- 
mentality of the famous George Whitfield, and other eminent 
itinerant preachers of that day, and who began their extra- 
ordinary career about the year 1740. Soon after these re- 
formers, who were at first called New Lights, and afterwards 
Separates, were organized into distinct societies, they were 
joined by Shubael Stearns, a native of Boston, Mass., who, 
becoming a preacher, labored among them until 1751, when 
he embraced the sentiments of the Baptists, as many others 
of the Pedobaptist Separates did about this time, and soon 
after was baptized by Rev. Wait Palmer." Now here we see 
that the first Baptists were called " New Lights," and that 
they came from the Presbyterians, and that they began about 
the year 1740, and they organized a church in 1757, and we 
see from this book that their first church was in Sandy Creek. 
That was the fi-rst church they had; and we find that this 
people soon got up great interest and revivals among them; 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 81 

and we find the statement here in Benedict's second volume, 
page 127, that this church, the first church that they had, 
soon swelled from sixteen members to six hundred and six. 
And it appears from this, their own work, that the great in- 
crease in their members and in their denomination was after 
the year 1740. i^ow, where did these great revivals come 
from? They came from this spirit of the Baptists, from the 
Presbyterians that embraced the Baptist sentiments. 
• See Benedict, second volume, page 56: ''At this session the 
Association was most painfully agitated by the discussion of 
the following very serious and important question, viz., ' Is 
salvation by Christ made possible for every individual of the 
human racef This query was debated with much interest, 
and also with much ability; for notwithstanding the proceed- 
ings of the last meeting, by which their wisdom was so much 
impeached, there were at this time a number of preachers 
amongst the Virginia Baptists who were men of considerable 
reading and theological knowledge, and they, in this inter- 
esting debate, exerted all their polemical powers. Those who 
supported the affirmative of this question were called Ar- 
minians, while those who maintained the opposite opinion 
were denominated Calvinists." Thus we see from this book 
that at that time there was one sect of the Baptists called 
Arminians, and another that was called Calvinistic Baptists; 
and this is the position taken on the subject of the atone- 
ment, that it was accessible to every man of the human race. 
The query laid down here is, " Is salvation by Christ made 
possible for every individual of the human race?" We find 
that was adopted among these people, and we see that they 
were divided; some were Calvinists and some Arminians. 
G 



82 DEBATE ON 

Benedict, page 61. We see from this that there had been 
a deviation, but that the discussion did not last but a few 
moments, when they united in the same association. Xow 
we go back to the union between these people, as they are 
spoken of here, and the Eegular Baptists. These Separate 
Baptists united with the Eegular Baptists, and it is shown 
that that people united with the Eegular Baptists in 1787 ; 
for on page 61 of the second volume of Benedict the follow- 
ing occurs: '' The subject of the union between the Eegulars 
and Separates was taken up, and after a brief and temperate 
discussion of their differences, a happy and effectual union 
was formed, and their party names dismissed and buried. 

" The objection on the part of the Separates related chiefly 
to matters of trivial importance, such as dress, &c., and had 
been for some time removed, as to being a bar of communion. 
On the other hand, the Eegulars complained that the Sepa- 
rates were not sufiici-ently explicit in their principles, having 
never published or sanctioned any confession of faith ; and 
that they kept within their communion many who were pro- 
fessed Arminians." That was the objection, " that they kept 
"within their communion many who were professed Armini- 
ans." " To this it was answered by the Separates that a 
large majority of them believed as much in their confession 
of faith as they did themselves." That is, that the Separates 
believed as much of the confession of faith of the Eegular 
Baptists as they did themselves— that a large majority of 
them did; but there was a people among them according to 
this language that did not believe it. ;^ow, I want to know 
whether there can be communion where there is no union. 
They claim to come in and make communion, when we see 
from this that there was no union. And here is the answer 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 83 

of the Separate Baptists: ''That if there were some among 
them who leaned too much to the Arminian system, they were 
generally men of exemplary piety and great usefulness in the 
Eedeemer's kingdom," &c. I take it that the Eegular Bap- 
tists, therefore, were the equal of the Arminians. This is 
where Arminianism came into our ranks j and we find that 
there was a fuss among the Baptists, and, following, a divi- 
sion. And let me tell you that these characters that came 
among us created the fuss among us, and when the Eegular 
Baptists in 1787 opened their doors to receive these people, 
that it led to a division among tlie Baptists. 

I^J'ow I want to read tl*e articles of faith upon which these 
people were united. The History of the Ketocton Baptist 
Association, i^age 17. Here we find the articles of faith as 
laid down by these people, and on reading them it looks to 
me very much like the articles of faith of the ancient Bap- 
tists. I will begin at the fifth article. 

" Fifthly. — That in eternity, God out of his own good 
pleasure chose a certain number of Adam's progeny to eternal 
life, and that he did not leave the accomplishment of his de- 
crees to accident or chance, but decreed all the means to 
bring about the event; therefore they are chosen to salvation 
through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience and sprink- 
ling of the blood of Jesus Christ. Their calling was decreed 
in the purpose of election. It is said, when called, that they 
are called according to his purpose and grace given in Christ 
Jesus before the world began, and all in order to manifest 
the glory of his grace. 

" Sixthly. — That the covenant of redemption was between 
the Father and the Son — that the elect were given by the 
Father to the Son, to be by him redeemed and finally saved; 



84 DEBATE ON 

and that the Son, as head and representative of his people, 
engaged to perform everything necessary or requisite to carry 
their complete salvation into effect. It is called in Scripture 
a well-ordered covenant in all things, and sure. 

*' Seventhly. — That in the fullness of time the Son of 
God was manifested by taking human nature into union with 
his divine person, in which capacity he wrought out right- 
eousuess for the justification of his people; yielding a per- 
fect and spotless obedience to all the requisitions of the di- 
vine law, and submitted himself to a shameful and ignomini- 
ous death on the cross, as an atonement for their sins, and 
reconciliation of their souls to God.^ 

"Eighthly. — That those that are redeemed by Christ, 
are in due time called to a saving knowledge of the Lord 
Jesus Christ, embracing him as the only way to God, and 
Savior of poor sinners. This effectual calling is accom- 
plished by the agency of the Holy Ghost operating in a free, 
irresistible and unfrustrable manner, by which the under- 
standing is enlightened, and the will subjected to Christ. 
Hence the scriptures testify that they are made willing in the 
day of his power. The internal cliange, or new birth in the 
soul, .is wholly ascribed to the power of God; for it is said of 
the regenerate: They are begotten of God, quickened of 
God, all expressive that it is the Lord's work, and he is en- 
titled to praise." 

That strikes me very much as the way the Old Baptists 
used to talk, and that is the way that they talk yet. Ee- 
member these are the articles of faith upon which these peo- 
ple were united, and these were the articles the Eegular Bap- 
tists held previous to the union. But these Arminians did 
not believe in them, because they believed that salvation was 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 85 

made possible to every human being of the human family; 
the Eegular Baptists did not believe that, but they believed 
that salvation was sure. 

[The Moderators annonnced that the speaker's time was up.] 



EEY. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : I feel a 
little better this morning than I did last evening. I will this 
morning recapitulate my questions to brother Hardy. 

Where did you have a separate denomination prior to 
1832? How many Baptists were there in the United States 
in 1832? When did the separation commence? How many 
did you exclude from the church ? What are your present 
numbers? How many have you in Europe? Who first 
brought the gospel to America? What makes the differ- 
ence between America and the heathen nations? Did you 
ever send a missionary among any people? If so, what 
church and what association? As to that question you will 
remember what Mr. Hardy said about brother Fulkerson, 
However, he went back on that this morning. Did you ever 
have a theological school, a Bible or tract organization ? Did 
you ever have a general association? Were we the church 
of Jesus Christ while we were united? Did you ever make 
the articles of faith a test of fellowship in your denomina- 
tion? Mr. Hardy asked me awhile ago to say whether re- 
pentanc^was the gift of God, or not. Now, answer my ques- 
tion : Is the word ''repent " in the active or passive voice? 



86 DEBATE ON 

I will attend to the subject of activity and passivity when I 
come to take up the burden of proof. 

You will remember that I submitted all these questions on 
yesterday morning, but so far he has not touched upon one 
of them, and, mark me, he will not answer one of them. An- 
other question I asked him was. What is the cause ot the 
sinner's damnation ? Is it because God is unwilling to save 
him? Was there a portion of the human family reprobated 
from eternity! I hold these questions open for brother 
Hardy to answer until to-morrow at noon, when I will as- 
sume the burden of proof, and so perform a work of supere- 
rogation. Brother Hardy, as I have predicted already, will 
not attempt to answer these questions, because, first, he can- 
not answer them, and, secondly, he will not, because they are 
diametrically opposed to his doctrine. 

Well, he has proved missionary operations in the case of 
brother Fulkersou. It would seem a number of brethren in 
Kansas wanted to organize a church, and they sent down to 
the brethren in Illinois to assist them, and they sent brother 
Fulkerson and felt disposed to pay his expenses. ]S[^ow, I see 
before me Presbyterians and Methodists that believe in mis- 
sionary operations, and I ask them if that is the kind of mis- 
sionary work they do? Missionary Baptists know some- 
thing about missionary work ; did they ever call such as that 
missionary work 1 Oh, says my brother Hardy, this morn- 
ing, he was not hired to go. Yesterday you said he was a 
missionary, and a missionary, you say, is hired. Oh, no, you 
say now, old brother Fulkerson's expenses were paid and 
that was all ! Well, if a man has his expenses paid, he don't 
care if he is hired, or not ; so he is well fed and clothed. 

When did our association pass a resolution to exclude your 



OHURCH IDENTITY. 87 

baptism ? I believe it was two years ago, be says. Did not 
I prove by Benedict that it was years ago 1 I told you yes- 
terday that I did not propose to defend the irregularities in 
our churches ,• I know that there are such things in them. 
The Apostle Paul never defended the irregularities of the 
church then, and I do not propose to do it now. The human 
family is imperfect, and the best of us will violate rules now 
and then. 

Mr. Hardy says that I prefer Watson to the Bible. Well, 
wait until I get to the Bible ; I am not yet ready to come to 
that. They talk about the increase of the Baptist Church ! 
I will show you a greater increase in the days of the Apos- 
tles than has ever been known since. I vvill show you mis- 
sion operations in the Bible. I will show you where the 
church sent out missionaries, and I will show you the points 
they were sent to. I will show you from the Bible where the 
Church sent their financial agent to collect money. Wait 
until I come to it. 

But, history ! says brother Hardy. And yet he has quoted 
from nothing but Missionary Baptist works. Mosheim, for 
instance, was a Lutheran, and consequently I am not in- 
debted to him. Mr. Hardy says that I made the charge that 
they had departed from their principles. Did nof your own 
brother, Dr. Watson, make it ? Why not fall your timber on 
him ? Don't you know your brother Watson was a truthful 
man? Does not everybody know that I quoted the charge 
from Dr. Watson, and is it necessary for me to recapitulate 
that? There are men here, observing men, who know that I 
quoted from Dr. Watson where he charges these people with 
reprehensive neglect, and departure from primitive ways. 
You may renounce Dr. Watson now, but I sav a smarter 



SS DEBATE ON 

man you never had, and you will never have such another. 
Or, if you do, you will have to get out of your old grooves^ 
and prejudice against theological institutions, for he was a 
graduate of one of them. 

Well, I told you yesterday that I would refer to Cofley. 
Brother Fulkerson is the indorser of the book, and he will 
certainly not object to taking Coffey now. I will first read 
brother Fulkerson's indorsement: " Having examined the 
manuscript, I, with all my heart, recommend this little vol- 
ume to the Regular Baptists and to all inquirers after truth.^' 
Mr. Thomas J. Oarr, another Regular Baptist, writes an ap- 
pendix, in which he also tells the same thing and indorses 
the work, but I will not read it. 

Now, Coffey, in quoting from Ray's History, says, ^' Ac- 
cording to Elder S. Trott there was no body of Baptists in 
the world calling themselves Old School, prior to the year 
1832." That is what their own writer says. He acknowl- 
edges the fact. I told you I would prove my statement by 
their own people; and here we have it acknowledged by 
their own writers. 

Coffey, page 14 : '' We will notice these ' historic facts and 
documents.' The historian's ' appeal ' is to the statement of 
three men, •from which he infers that they admit that the se- 
cession was on the part of the Regulars, or Hard-shells. We 
will here give the statements, in order, of the three men just 
alluded to : ' Elder S. Trott, an Old School Baptist of dis- 
tinction, says of the separation : This brought brethren, 
churches and associations that had been groaning under bur- 
dens of human inventions and impositions in religion, to sep- 
arate them&elves, some sooner and some later, from the whole 
mass of the popular religion and religionists, and to take a 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 5^ 

stand as a distinct people upon the Old Bajptist standard. 
The holding of the scriptures as the only and a perfect ride of 
faith and practice^ and Christ as the Foundation, the Head 
and Life of the church, the only source and medium of salva- 
tion. This separation occasioned the splitting of several as- 
sociations and many churches. We took, as a distinguish- 
ing appellation, the name, Old School Baptists.' 

** The above is one of the ' historic facts ' to which Mr. 
Eay appeals in order to prove the priority of the Missiona- 
ries. Surely he must be sorely pressed for testimony, that 
he would strain the language and misconstrue the meaning 
of Elder Trott's statement, in order to establish his position, 
while the proper interpretation goes to confirm the fact that 
the Old Baptists applied the sacred rule and withdrew from 
them that walked disorderly." 

Now, I want brother Hardy to answer as to whether we 
were the church of Christ when we were united ? He cer- 
tainly ought to be able to answer that question, inasmuch as 
he is a man who claims to have read history a great deal. 
Why^does not he come up to the point % 

Page 16: " The Eegular Baptists have ever regarded the 
inventions of men in the affairs of religion an unspeakable 
abomination before God j and it has always been their cus- 
tom to withdraw from any disorder, either in doctrine or 
practice. The ' element of heresy ' alluded to by Dr. Watson, 
was doubtless the doctrine of nonresurrection, and they with- 
drew from that disorder as well as the modern missionary 
heresy." Now, the question arises, had Coffey ever seen 
Watson's book? If be never did, what right had he to say 
what Watson had referred to ? If he bad ever seen the bookj 



90 DEBATE ON 

I will show you that Coifey made a statement that he knew 
was untrue. Il^ow, is not that the way to get at it ? 

On page 25 of Eay's History the following passage occurs : 
^' Dr. John M. Watson says : ' After our painful separation 
from the Missionaries in 1836, a number of churches in the 
bounds of the Old Concord Association met together and 
formed the Stone Elver Association. We had then, as was 
generally supposed, a strong and hapi^y union ; but, alas ! 
there was an element of heresy incorporated in that body as 
bad, if not worse, than that from which we had just with- 
drawn.' In the above Dr. Watson admits that the ' Old 
Baptists ' separated and ivithdreic from the ' Missionaries.' 
It is admitted that, in some cases, the anti-mission brethren 
had the majority in churches, and even in some associations; 
but as a body they were largely in the minority, only a frac- 
tion, when the separation occurred. Elder Jeter says of 
these Baptists : ' The class of Baptists described in the above 
extract were called, in some places. Old School, and in others, 
from the name of the place at which they held their seceding 
convention, Black Eock Baptists. They separated yiem- 
selves from the Eegular Baptists about the time of the rise 
of Mr. Campbell's Eeformation.' And Elder Beebe, of Kew 
York, the anti-mission editor, admits, in substance, the truth 
of the above position, that the ^ Old School ' Baptists seceded 
or withdrew from the ' Missionary ' Baptists." 

Now, Coffey comes up and says that Watson, without a 
doubt, had reference to nonresurrectionism ; and I say if he 
had ever seen Watson's book, then he made a statement he 
knew to be untrue j and if he never had seen it, why did he 
put any such language as that into his work? And brother 
Eulkerson indorses this work, having seen the manuscript of 



OHUROH IDENTITY. 91 

it, as full of truth, and recommends it to the brethren and all 
inquirers after truth. Ii^ow, this I know is bad coffee, but 
hold your nose and drink. 

l!^ow, turn to Coffey, page 20, which is a letter from the 
editor of the Signs of the Times, Elder Beebe, to brother 
Thomas J. Carr. 

" Brother Oarr. — When I became a member of the Bap- 
tist Church in 1811 no religious institution was known or 
patronized to my knowledge, in connection with the Baptists 
of the United States." 

This is the statement of one of the leading men of your de- 
nomination to Mr. Carr a few years ago. I believe that Mr. 
Carr lives in brother Fulkerson's neighborhood ; and when 
they got up this work, I suj)pose they got this statement from 
Mr. Beebe after calling his attention to what Mr. Eay says. 
And this is his reply to them, that when he joined their 
church in 1811 no such thing as they spoke of existed. Yet 
this book is recommended to all inquirers after truth ! if a 
man wants to find the truth, brother Fulkerson says that he 
can get it from this work. 

I will now quote from Benedict, page 453: "At that time 
Eev. Dr. James Manning was officiating as President of 
Bhode Island College, which had been commenced in 1765, 
under his direction, at Warren. It was for several years a 
matter of doubt where the college would be permanently 
established, but in 1770, it was determined by the corpora- 
tion, that the college edifice ^be built in the town of Provi- 
dence, and there be continued forever.' The removal of Dr. 
Manning to this town was hailed by the church as a happy 
event, supposing, as they did, that by calling him to be their 
minister they would carry into effect Mr. Windsors wishes. 



02 DEBATE ON 

Immediately on his arrival he was requested to occupy the 
pulpit, and as the first Sabbath on which he preached hap- 
pened to be the day for administering the Lord's supper, he 
was invited by Mr. Windsor to participate with the church. 
Soon after that, suspicion seems to have arisen among some, 
that Dr. Manning held the imposition of hands rather too 
loosely, and th^t he practiced it more to accommodate the con- 
sciences of others, than to meet the demands of his own. A 
party of these was soon formed, with whom Mr. Windsor 
himself sympathized and acted. Still it was thought by 
some that this was only ' the ostensible reason ' of their dis- 
satisfaction, and that they must have some other one more 
weighty. This was found in the opposition of Mr. Windsor 
to the introduction of music in public worship, which it was 
supposed Dr. Manning favored. On that point the senti- 
ments of the Quakers seem to have prevailed, and singing 
was discarded, as unauthorized by the New Testament. 
What diversity of opinion once existed touching a point 
which seems clear to us, may be inferred from the fact, that 
in 1691, a work was published in London, by the celebrated 
Keach, entitled, 'The Breach Repaired in God's worship 5 or 
the singing of psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, proved to 
be a holy ordinance of Jesus Christ.' In this the author pro- 
ceeded to show what it is to sing, that there can be no proper 
singing without the voice, that the essence of singing is no 
more in the heart or spirit than the essence of preaching, and 
to elucidate other points conuiected with the subject. It is 
probable that singing was first laid aside in times of persecu- 
tion, on account of the danger of practicing it, and afterwards 
it was difficult to revive everywhere a due sense of its worth 
as a divine appointment. In regard to this the teaching of 



I 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 93 

the New Testament seems to us to be quite explicit, and that 
the church is left to select her own songs and modes of sing- 
ing; yet it is worthy of note, that among the Scotch Presby- 
terians there has been more objection to the introduction of 
metrical hymns, than there ever was in this place to the in- 
troduction of sacred music into worship. Such discussions 
may seem fastidious now, but it must be remembered that 
after Popery had long made void God's word by man's tra- 
dition, the spirit which produced a reformation would be 
naturally characterized by an extreme and sensitive jealousy, 
on every practice on which the seal of divine authority was 
not clearly seen. On this latter point Mr. Windsor strongly 
insists in his letter to the church touching the controversy 
before us, though the stress of his argument is applied to the 
doctrine of laying on of hands. After a series of church 
meetings, the whole matter was decided in favor of Dr. Man- 
ning, who thence became the pastor of this church, while Mr. 
Windsor afterwards became the founder of a new church in 
Johnston, which exists to this day." 

We have seen by Mr. Beebe's statement that he joined the 
church in 1811, and says that such a thing as this did not 
exist among the Baptists at that time, but here we find that 
this college was constituted in the year 1765. My brother 
has been quoting from Benedict himself. Now, after this, I 
wonder whether he will go back of him. How do you like 
coffee of that kind ! 

Now I will turn to Benedict, page 591 j and I may say here, 
that I will hereafter give the reason why it is that he makes 
this statement: " The first school ' for the education of youth 
for the ministry,' among the American Baptists, was begun 
at Hopewell, in this State, by Kev. Isaac Eaton, a distin- 



94 DEBATE ON 

guislied minister of bis day. This school was opened in 1756, 
and continued eleven years. Towards the support of it a 
fund of £100 was raised by the Philadelphia Association, 
which was mostly annihilated by the ravages of continental 
money. Among the ministers who received the rudiments of 
their education at this academy were J. Manning, S. Jones. 
H. Smith, I. Spillman, D. Thomas, J. Davis, W. Williams, R. 
Keith, C. Thompson, D. Jones, J. Sutton, D. Sutton, J. Tal- 
bot, J. Blackwell, J. Powell, W. Worth, L. Bonnell." Now, 
here we have the statement made that this college was found- 
ed in 1756, and it has stood until this day. 1756 — long be- 
fore Mr. Beebe joined the church, and he is one of their lead- 
ing men. Isow I will show you the reason for this statement, 
and I will show you that these representations are just; and 
don't you hear them asserted from the pulpit every Sunday 
whenever tliey preach throughout this country! 

Now T will quote from page 707: " In 1755 the Association, 
taking into consideration the destitute condition of many 
places in the interior settlements of this and the neighboring 
States (then Provinces), recommended to the churches to 
make contributions for the support of a missionary, to itine- 
rate in those parts. Mr. Hart was authorized and requested, 
provided a sufficient sum could be raised, to procure, if pos- 
sible, a suitable person for the purpose. With this view he 
visited Pennsylvania and New Jersey in the following year, 
and prevailed with Rev. John Gano to undertake the service^ 
who attended the annual meeting, and was cordially received. 
The Association requested Mr. Gano to visit the Yadkin set- 
tlement, in North Carolina, first, and afterwards to bestow 
his labors wherever Prpvidence should appear to direct." 
Now, here it is shown that in the year 1755 the Philadelphia 



^CHURCH IDENTITY. 95 

Association sent out a missionary into the destitute places in 
the country; and yet Mr. Beebe says that no such thing ex- 
isted in the year 1811, when he joined the church. And, as 
I said before, Mr. Beebe is one of your leading men. Doubt- 
less this is very good coffee. 

^ow I will turn to page 708 of Benedict: "The following 
year he received from the Association a letter of thanks for 
his faithfulness and industry in the mission. At the same 
time the expediency of raising a fund to furnish suitable can- 
didates for the ministry, with a competent share of learning, 
was taken into consideration, and it was recommended to the 
churches generally to collect money for the purpose. The 
members present engaged in behalf of their constituents to 
furnish £133 to begin the fund, and Messrs. Stephens, Hart 
and Pelot were chosen trustees. In 1759 Mr. Evan Pugh 
was proposed, by Mr. Gano, as a candidate for the ministry. 
He was examined, approved, and i^ut on a course of studies. 
Having gone through them, he preached before the Associa- 
tion in 1762, with acceptance, and was soon after ordained." 
Here you have a candidate ordained from this very college in 
1762, and had preached before your Association, and yet Mr. 
Beebe says that no such thing existed at that fime. I guess 
this is a kind of coffee that you are not going to use. 

Benedict, page 709: "The Association has now existed 
ninety-six years, and during this long period it has been uni- 
form in its principles and pursuits, having been under the 
management of men of intelligence and stability. Among 
its earlier doings it paid special attention to the cause of 
missions, ministerial education, and all benevolent institu- 
tions then patronized and promoted by evangelical christians. 

" So deeply were they imbued with the sxiirit of missions, 



:96 DEBATE ON 

that almost a hundred years since they sent more than a 
thousand miles for the Eev. John Gano, to become their mis- 
sionary in destitute parts of their own State, and of North 
Carolina. He was appointed and supported in the same 
manner as missionaries are at the present time." 

]S'ow, then, after this, claim that you are identified with the 
ancient Baptists. Here we have them sending for Gano a 
distance of a thousand miles, and he was supported in the 
same manner as missionaries are at the present time; and 
jet Mr. Beebe asserts that there was no such thing as a mis- 
sionary at the time he joined the church in 1811, and Mr. 
Goffey indorses Mr. Beebe! You will find that on page 25, 
which I will not take time to read; but I will quote from 
page 43 of Coffey's work: " The first Association that adopt- 
ed it in the United States was the Philadelphia Association; 
they, at their meeting in 181G, appointed Luther Eice to pro- 
ceed to the \Yest to enlist the Associations in that part of 
the country in their cause." Here your author says that the 
^rst time that such a thing was known in the United States 
was in the year 1816. I have shown from the quotations that 
I have made that it existed long prior to that time, and I 
think I have proved it to the satisfaction of the people here, 
!N'ow, if you will read the biography of Luther Eice, you will 
find that he was ordained in 1812; not that he commenced 
the work at that time, but that he was ordained and sent out 
at that time. But Mr. Coffey says that that was in the year 
1816, four years after the time stated in the biography of 
Eice. When this book was first published I happened to 
pick it up, and inadvertently opened it at page 53, where the 
parallel line is drawn, showing on one side " the true gospel," 
and on the other side '' the missionary gospel," and this is it: 



I 



church identity. 97 

•"The True Gospel and the Missionary Gospel. 



"Behold, I was shapeu in 
iniquity, and in sin -did my 
mother conceive me. — David. 

"All scripture is given by 
inspiration of God. — Paul. 

"Elect according to the fore- 
knowledge of God. — Peter. 

" For the gifts and calling 
of God are without repent- 
ance. — Paul. 

" It is not of him that will- 
eth, nor of him that runneth, 
but of God that sheweth mer- 
cy. — Paul. 

"Of his own will begat he 
us with the word of truth. — 
James. 

" !N"o man can come anto me 
except the Father, which hath 
sent me, draw him. — Jesus. 

" If any man lack wisdom, 
let him ask of God. — James. 

"Take the oversight there- 
of; not for filthy lucre. — Peter. 

"Take neither purse, nor 
scrip, nor two coats. — Jesus. 

" Verily, verily I say unto 
you. Except a man be born 
again, he cannot see the king- 
dom of God. — JesusJ^ 



"All men Sre born pure and 
holy. 

" We need a new revision. 

" 1:^0 man is elected until he 
repents and believes. 

" There are no gifts and call- 
ing of God until you repent. 

"It is of him that willeth, 
and of him that runneth, that 
he may obtain mercy. 

" Of our own will we em- 
braced religion. 

"All may come, if they will, 
and obtain religion. 

" Must send them to college 
to learn them to preach. 

" I will preach for $500 a 
year. 

"Take all the purses and 
scrip you can collect. 

" Except a man use the 
means in his power, in order 
that he may be born again, he 
cannot be saved." 



Now, I ask you all here if you ever heard a Missionary 
Baptist preach such as is put down here. I say to brother 
Hardy, that if any of his people ever heard a Missionary 
[Baptist preach this as it is here, I want that man's name and 
his post-office address. I speak to this whole congregation : 
Methodists, Presbyterians, Missionary Baptists, or anybody. 
Have you ever heard a Missionary Baptist preach such as 



98 DEBATE ON 

this in your lives? If you have, give me the man's name and 
his post-office address, and I will communicate with him. I 
denounce it as false in every particular j as false a statement 
as was ever invented. 

[One of the audience here rose in his seat and said that 
Dr. C. C. Chaplin, of Austin, Texas, preached that very thing 
in Padueah, Kentucky.] 

Mr. Wallace said — I am very well acquainted with him, and 
I am willing to stand by what he says. I am certain that 
Dr. Chaplin never made any such statement, and I say now 
that I will address him on this subject. It is the first time 
that I ever heard of such a thing being preached. I know 
that it is not Missionary Baptist doctrine. I repeat now that 
I will address Dr. Chaplin on the subject, and if he ever 
preached such a thing, he is one of the most ignorant men in 
our denomination. 

[The Moderators here ansounced that the speaker's time had expired,] 



ELDEE HAEDY SAID 



Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I will 
notice a few things that Mr. Wallace has stated in regard to 
his people refusing to receive our baptism. It seems that 
they received our baptism for forty-six years, and never knew 
that it was wrong until two years ago, when they passed an 
act in their Association saying that they would no longer do 
it. ISTow, in the first place, what made them think that it 
was right? It seems to me that with all their colleges and 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 99 

learning and talent they ougbt to have found that it was 
wrong long previous to that time. 

:Mr. Wallace tries to prove that his people are certainly the 
original Baptists, simply from the fact that they had a college 
away back in 1764. If the Baptists previous to 1764 did not 
have them, I want to know if we are not on the original 
ground in place of them. The first college that he can show 
among the Baptists was in 1764. 

Xow, I want to read from Cramp, page 547 : " The govern- 
ment of the college is vested in a Board of Fellows, consist- 
ing of twelve members, of whom eight, including the presi- 
dent, must be Baptists, and a Board of Trustees, consisting 
of thirty-six members, of whom twenty-two must be Baptists, 
five Friends or Quakers, four Oongregationalists, and five 
Episcopalians. These represent the different denominations 
existing in the state when the charter was obtained. The 
instruction and immediate government of the college rests in 
the president and Board of Fellows." 

Xow, we see from this that that college did not belong to 
the Baptists exclusively. As a denomination the Baptists 
had no such thing as this belonging to them. 

I will now refer to Benedict, page 810: 

" Literary Institutions.— Hitherto our people have had 
nothing of the kind which they could call their own, of much 
permanency or efficiency. Late reports exhibit a commenda- 
ble degree of zeal and liberality in favor of a projected semi- 
nary of the liberal class, to be called The Union University, 
to be located at Murfreesborough." 

Here it is shown that this is the first thing of the kind that 
the Baptists had, and this was organized in the year 1840. 

But enough of colleges. If Mr. Wallace can prove that the 



100 DEBATE ON 

Baptists had a tbousaiu] colh^^es in 1764 or 1765 or 1766, 
wljat would that amnmit to? The question is: Did the Bap- 
tists in ancient days h^ve such things in their order, institu- 
tions to manufacture preachers? I say distinctly that tbey 
did not have them. 

Then, Mr. Wallace comes in with his missionaries and says 
that he is going to prove that they were known and used by 
the church away back yonder in the days of the Apostles. 
!N"ow as to these people I have shown from quotation already 
made that the great increase in their denomination was ia 
the year 1740. 

I take the position here, and I am going to prove it, that 
the first Missionary Society the Missionaries ever had was 
organized in the year 1792, and I do not think Mr. Wallace 
will dispute my authority. I refer to Benedict's first volume, 
pages 234, 5, 6 and 7 : " This mission originated in England, 
and is supported and directed by a society, which was formed 
about twenty years ago, by the Ba[)tists in that kingdom. 
An interesting account of this iaiportaut establishment was 
not long since published in a small volume by Dr. Staughton, 
of Philadelphia, under the title of the Baptist mission in In- 
dia, containing a narrative of its rise, progress, and present 
condition. Yery interesting communications from the Mis- 
sionaries in India are also frequently inserted in the Baptist 
Magazine, edited by Dr. Baldwin, of Boston. But for the 
benefit of those of our brethren who have not had access to 
these sources of information, I shall here give a brief account 
of this noble institution. 

"As early as 1784, it was resolved by an association held 
at Nottingham, in England, to set apart an hour the first 
Monday evening in every month, for extraordinary prayer 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 101 

for the revival of religioo, and for the extending of Christ's 
kingdom in the world. This was three years before Mr. 
Carey was ordained. This distinguished man from his first 
entering on the work of the ministry, directed all his thoughts, 
plans and studies towards enterprises of a missionary kind. 
In 1790 he visited Birmingham and became acquainted with 
the late Samuel Pearce, whose kindred soul entered with 
ardor into all his views. Others at the same time were ani- 
mated with a missionary zeal, and in 1702 the society was 
formed at Kettering, which has since, by its wonderful acts, 
astonished the christian world." 

Minutes of the Philadelphia Baptist Association 
FROM A. D. 1707 TO 1807.— (page 430) : " Patronized by chris- 
tians in Scotland and in America, Elliott, Brainerd, Ed- 
wards, and others labored among the aborigines of the coun- 
try ; but it was not until about the year 1790 that the great 
missionary spirit, which now exists, began to diffuse itself. 
On the mind of our brother Carey, and of several brethren of 
the Northamptonshire Baptist Association in England, the 
case of the benighted Pagans lay with weight. Prayer meet- 
ings for the spread of the gospel were established, and a 
pamphlet was composed and published by brother Carey, 
stating and enforcing the obligations of christians to exert 
themselves for the conversion of the heathen. The holy 
flame spread until in the year 1792 the Baptist Missionary 
Society was formed. Bengal was determined upon as the 
seat of the mission, and our brethren Carey and Thomas 
were sent thither." 

Then, see " Life and Death of Rev. Andrew Fuller," page 
139: "A resolution was printed in this year's Letter 'That 
a plan be prepared against the next ministers' meeting at 



102 DEBATE ON 

Kettering for forming a Baptist Society for Propagating the 
Gospel among the Heathen.' Brother Carey generously en- 
gaged to devote all the profits that might arise from his late 
publications on this interesting subject to the use of such a 
society. This society was actually formed in Mrs. Beeby 
Wallis's back parlor, on October 2, 1792, as all the friends 
of the Baptist Mission know." 

]!i^ow, brother Wallace, are you a friend of the Baptist mis- 
sion? This writer says they all know it, and if you are a 
''friend," and they all know it, then you know it. Here I 
have established the fact by three witnesses that the first 
missionary society was formed in 1792, and if the Baptists 
had nothing of this nature previous to that time, I ask this 
intelligent congregation if that was not a departure from 
Baptist usage. Mr. Wallace cries out that we are opposed 
to missionism. I say we are not opposed to it on the plan of 
the Bible, but we are opposed to missionary societies on the 
new patent plan. But I do not think it is worth while to 
argue any longer on the subject of missionism and Bible so- 
cieties, and I will now turn to another point. 

It is generally understood that the Baptists claim that 
Koger Williams was the founder of the first church in Amer- 
ica, but I propose to show here the foundation and existence 
of a church previous to that of Williams's. Mr. Wallace 
claims that he has broken my chain of succession ; I could 
break his line of baptism, simply from the fact that Eoger 
Williams was baptized by a lay member. 

However, to go back to the first church established. Cox's 
History (page 530) : '' Dr. Clark was then the founder of the 
first Baptist church in America, at Newport, in 1638." 

Kow, the church set up by Williams was set up in 1639, 



CHURCH IDENTITr. 103 

but by the above quotation we discover a church founded a 
year previous to that time. And as to this church estab- 
lished by Williams we learn from history that it soon became 
extinguished, for says this author (same page) : " Mr. Bene- 
dict thinks he (Williams) remained pastor of the little church 
four years, and then joined the Quakers;" and this church, 
says history, soon went out of existence. But even as to 
that, let me say we are not dependent on either of these, be- 
-cause there were a number of Baptists that came from the 
old country here as organized churches, notably a Welch 
church that was organized in 1701 in Wales and came to 
America as an organized church; and that church stands to- 
day, and it stands on the very principle on which it was or- 
ganized. And I take the position that it stands on the very 
same principles that it has ever stood, and that church is the 
Regular Baptists of this day. So we see the first church in 
America did not originate with Eoger Williams. The first 
association in America was organized in 1701, and the Mis- 
sionary Baptists claim this as a Missionary Baptist Associa- 
tion. However, I have got the history of that association 
here ; and, as we want to decide this matter and ascertain 
what doctrine they teach, whether they preach the doctrine 
of the Missionary Baptists or that of the Regular Baptists, I 
will refer to it. The confession of faith that people adopted 
away back yonder was written out by the Baptists in Wales 
in 1689. (Belcher, 141.) 

"3. God's Decree. — Those of mankind who are predes- 
tined to life, God, before the foundation of the world was 
laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and 
the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen 
in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace 



104 DEBATE ON 

and love; vrithout auy other thing in the creature as a con- 
dition or cause moving him thereunto. 

"As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath 
by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained 
all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected^ 
being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually 
called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due sea- 
son, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power 
through faith unto salvation. — Eph. i. 4, 5, 11; John xiii. 18 f 
Kom. viii. 29, 30; Eph. ii. 8; 2d Thess. ii. 13; John xvii. 17, 19. 

'' 4. ThE Fall of Man, and Sin.— Although God created 
man upright and perfect, and gave to him a righteous law, 
yet he did not long abide in this honor, but did willfully trans- 
gress the command given unto him, in eating the forbidden 
fruit ; which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy 
counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own 
glory. Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original 
righteousness and communion with God, whereby death came 
upon all ; all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all 
the faculties and parts of soul and body. They being the 
root, corrupted nature was conveyed to all their posterity, 
descending from them by ordinary generation, being now 
conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath. — Gen. ii. 
16, 17 ; Gen. iii. 11, 12, 13 : Rom. v. 12-14 ; Jer. xvii. 9 ; Psa. 
Ii. 5 ; Eph. ii. 3. 

"5. God's Covenant. — Man having brought himself un- 
der the curse of the law by his fall, it pleased the Lord to re- 
veal the covenant of grace, wherein he freely offereth unta 
sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them 
faith in him, that they might be saved, and promising to give 
unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life his Holy 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 105 

Spirit, to make tbem willing and able to believe. — Gal. iii»10; 
John iii. 15, 16. 

"6. Christ as the Mediator.— The Son of God, the 
second person in the Holy Trinity, being very and eternal 
God, the brightness of the Father's glory, of one substance 
and equal with him, who made the world, who upholdeth and 
governeth all things he hath made, did, when the fullness of 
time was come, take upon him man's nature, with all the 
essential properties and common infirmities thereof, yet with- 
out sin -y so that two whole, perfect and distinct natures were 
inseparably joined together in one person, which person is 
very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator 
between God and man. — John i. 14 ; Gal. iv. 4 -, Eom. viii. 3 j 
Heb. iv. 15; 1st Tim. ii. 5. 

" 7. Eedemption.— The Lord Jesus Christ, by his perfect 
obedience and sacrifice of himself, which he through the eter- 
nal Spirit once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the 
justice of God, procured reconciliation, and purchased an 
everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven for all those 
whom the Father hath given unto him. 

" To all those for whom Christ hath obtained eternal re- 
demption, he doth certainly and effectually apply and com- 
municate the same, making intercession for them, uniting 
them to himself by his Spirit, revealing unto them in and by 
the word th(^ mystery of salvation, persuading them to be- 
lieve and obey, governing their hearts by his word and Spirit, 
overcoming all their enemies by his almighty power and wis- 
dom, in such manner and ways as are most consonant to his 
wonderful and unsearchable dispensation, and all of free and 
absolute grace, without any condition foreseen in them to 
procure it. — Heb. x. 14,- Rom. iii. 25, 2(5; John xvii. 2 ; Heb. 



106 DEBATE ON 

ix. 15 j John vii. 37; John xvii. 9; Eom. viii. 9, 14; 1 Cor. 
XV. 25, 26; John iii. 8. 

"8. The Will.— Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath 
wholly lost all will to any spiritual good accompanying sal- 
vation; so a natural man, being altogether averse from that 
good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to con- 
vert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. 

^' When God converts a sinner and translates him into the 
state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under 
sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and do 
that which is spiritually good. — Eom. viii. 7, 8; John vi. 44; 
Col. i. 13, 14 ; John viii. S6 ; Eom. viii. 2 ; Eph. ii. 8 ; 2d Tim. 
i. 9. 

<' 9. Effectual Calling.— Those whom God hath pre- 
destinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed and ac- 
cepted time effectually to call by his word and Spirit, out of 
the state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to 
grac.e of salvation by Jesus Christ. — Eom. viii. 30 ; 2d Thess. 
ii. 13, 14 ; Eph. i. 4, 5. 

"10. Justification.— Those whom God effectually call- 
eth, he also freely justifieth, accounting and accepting their 
persons as righteous ; not for anything wrought in them or 
done by them, but for Christ's sake alone.— Eom. iii. 24 ; viii. 
30; V. 17-19. 

"11. Adoption.— All those that are justified,#God vouch- 
safed in and for the sake of his only Son, Jesus Christ, to 
make partakers of the grace of adoption, by which they are 
taken into the number and enjoy the liberties and privileges 
of the children of God.— Eph. i. 5 ; Gal. iv. 5, 6 ; Eph. ii. 19 ; 
Eom. viii. 15. 

" 12. They who are united to Christ, effectually called and 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 107 

regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in 
them, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, 
are also further sanctified, really and personally, through the 
same virtue, by his word and Spirit dwelling in them. — John 
xviii. 17-19 ; Eph. iii. 16-19." 

IS'ow, here are the articles of faith adopted by the found- 
ers of the church in Wales in the year 1689, as we find by 
the title to them on page 141 of Belcher's " Eeligious Denom- 
inations ;" and these were adopted by the Philadelphia Bap- 
tist Association in 1742. Brother Wallace has complained 
that I asked the question and then answered it as to the ob- 
ject of these people in writing their articles of faith. I said 
that it was done simply because they wanted to set forth the 
doctrine by which they professed to be governed. ISTow, I 
want to know if Mr. Wallace will come up here and admit 
that these articles ot faith are in harmony with the doctrine 
of the Missionary Baptists of to-day — if they contain what 
the Missionary Baptists of to-day believe. These people, it 
seems, believe that the salvation of the sinner belongs to the 
Lord Jesus Christ — that he does all the work ; and that is 
what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that he saved us of 
his holy calling, and that it is not according to our works, 
but according to his own grace that was given to us before 
the world began. And do not these articles of faith set forth 
the same doctrine ? Do they not set forth the doctrine that 
the Eegular Baptists believe to-day ? Did you ever hear a 
Eegular Baptist preach anything contrary to what is con- 
tained in them ? I say, Mr. Wallace, you never did in your 
life. , 

Minutes of the Philadelphia Baptist Association.— 
(Here is a query that came before the Association in the year 



108 DEBATE ON 

1753.) Page QS : " Query from the church at Kingwood : 
* Whether a person denying unconditional election, | these 
people believed the doctrine of unconditional election, and I 
want you to notice the query, if you please] the doctrine of 
original sin, and the final perseverence of the saints, and 
striving to affect as many as he can, may have full com- 
munion with the church V 

^' Answer : That the very consequence of it opposeth the 
absolute sovereignty of God over his own creatures contrary 
to express Scriptures, which to declare and fully prove, the 
three parts denied by said questionist. 

" 1st. That personal election is the truth of God." 

That is what they said ; and did not brother Wallace come 
up and make sport of this people on yesterday because we 
believe its doctrine ? " That personal election is the truth of 
God, (Eph. i. 5 ; Matt. xxiv. 24) ; and our infallible hope is 
proved by John x. 28 ; as also the saints' perseverence, verse 
29, and John xvii. 6 ; they are the gift of the Father to his 
Son, Jesus Christ, who will, and is able to, keep them and 
secure their happiness. — John xvii. 24 ; Acts xiii. 48. The 
foundation of God standeth sure, whatever becomes of the 
presumi3tuous counsels of obstinate men. — 2d Thess. ii. 13 y 
Titus i. 1 ; 1st Peter i. 2-5. 

" That we are originally sinful, or partakers of the first sin 
of human nature, being all included in Adam when he was 
created, and partakers of that happiness with which he was 
indued, as his rightful heir ; but he, forgetting that great 
favor bestowed freely upon him and his posterity, we, as well 
as himself, are justly shut out of our native happiness, and 
have lost our right thereunto forever, unless our title be re- 
stored by the second Adam, the Lord from heaven, by being. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 109 

effectually called in time. — Eph, ii. 12, 13 ; Eom. v. 12 to the 
end ; Ecd. vii. 2. Upon which fundamental doctrines of 
christianitj', next to the belief of an eternal God, our faith 
must rest ; and we adopt, and would that all the churches 
belonging to the Association be well grounded in accordance 
to our Confession of Faitti and Catechism, and cannot allow 
that any are true members of our churches who deny the 
said principles, be their conversation outward what it will." 
Here we are told that if they deny the doctrine of personal 
election, it makes no difference what their outward talk may 
be, they would not be received as members of the church. 
And I say that we do the same things. Brother Wallace 
would not be received, because he does not believe that. 

Now turn to page 128 of the same volume : " This year the 
association met at Philadelphia, October 12th, and began at 
three o'clock, p. m., as usual, with divine service. The ser- 
mon by our brother, Eev. Morgan Edwards, from Numbers 
xxiii. 9; who, after observing, that ' standing alone and uu- 
reckoned among the nations ' meant a religious • singularity;' 
and Qomparing his text with the King of Moab's sense of it, 
chap. xxiv. 10, advanced this doctrinal point and exempli- 
fied it in the case of the Baptists from the beginning of Chris- 
tianity to the present time. ' Standing alone and unnum- 
bered, with any religious society.' " This year referred to, as 
we find by the title, was 1773. These Baptists up to that 
time stood alone and. unnumbered with anj* religious society. 
These people had no such things among them, as Mr. Wal- 
lace has strived to prove, in the year 1773; they had no such 
thing as a religious society, and nothing to train up the chil- 
dren and to teach them religion -, but, no doubt, they brought 
them up in the fear and admonition of the Lord. 

[The Moderators announced that the speaker's time was up.] 



EEV. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I feel 
still better, I improve as I get along. 

First, as to what brother Hardy said as to its being only- 
two years ago since a thing was known among Baptists as 
prescription against baptism. I will quote from Benedict, 
page 943 : " I have ascertained by my extensive correspond- 
ence, that by far the greatest part of our denomination both 
rebaptize and reordain all who join them, from whatever 
churches they come." 

E"ow, that is from Benedict, over fifty years ago, and he 
was then speaking of the Baptists of the L^nited States, and 
this is in reference to the question of the increase in our de- 
nomination. 

Brother Hardy next takes up the question as to where and 
when missionism first commenced. That is something that 
I will attend to, without any help from Mr. Hardy. Why 
does not he dispute what Beebe says? " Here, now, he says, 
in 1791," which means nineteen years before Beebe joined the 
church, and forty years before you had an existence, because 
you cannot show a separate. denomination prior to the year 
1832. Why does not Mr. Hardy come up to this point? 

I asked him to answer the question whether articles of faith 
had ever been made a test of fellowship in his denomination, 
or not. He has failed to answer the question, and I will show 
you after awhile why he has failed. Let him spend his whole 



OHUECH IDENTITY. Ill 

strength on the articles of faith, if he wants to. I will attend 
to that point in due time. 

He says that many Baptists claim Eoger Williams as the 
founder of the church. Why, Mr. Hardy claimed that him- 
self when we had the discussion over in Livingston County. 
Now, however, he claims that the first church was at New- 
port under John Clark, and he says that that is a Eegular 
Baptist church to-day. Well, I am not going to dispute that. 
You know it is a Eegular Baptist church, and you know that 
that church is now supporting missionary operations ; and 
that church belongs to us, and never belonged to anybody 
else. 

And that is not all. I will show you churches that never 
had a split in them in this country ; I will cite to you whole 
states that never had any trouble in their churches and never 
knew anything about antimissionism only as they found it 
recorded in history. I will show you how these troubles 
arose, where it did. One of the charges made by Mr. Hardy^s 
people was that the Missionary Baptists were in alliance 
with the Abolitionists of the North. It was charged that all 
they wanted was to get the reins of the government in their 
hands, and the Baptists were warned against these Mis- 
sionary Baptists. I don't think Mr. Hardy will call that' 
statement in question. 

Next. Mr. Hardy said I made sport of the doctrine of 
election. Who heard that ? I had something to say about 
his " eternal election," it is true. Now, I believe in the doc- 
trine of election by the foreknowledge of God as much as 
any man 5 there is no man on earth that believes it more 
than I do, but this " eternal " arrangement, I do not believe. 
I believe in election, as do all my brethren, so far as the fore- 



112 DEBATE ON 

ki)owle(1ge and i-niitoNe of God is coiicerned ; and we have 
never denied it, A\\(] th-At is not all. I will show you tbat 
God niade a choice of means to bring about that election; 
tbat lie oidained the ji()si)el as one of the primary means. 
Mr. Hardy and his |)e(»j)le deny that. I say I will show you 
that Baptists anciently said it was a means to bring in the 
elect of God. Mr. Hanly has called on his God to witness 
that he did not lielieve in means. He says further that I 
cannot get in his church. I say I can get in on anything. I 
can get in on ai)0stasy and infant baptism. I know they will 
require an explanation of this I have asked Mr. Hardy to 
^ay whether articles of faith have ever been made a test of 
fellowship in his denomination. Whenever he comes up in 
answer to this, I will prove what I have said. I told you 
yesterday that if I made any statement before this people 
that I could not prove, I would emphatically take it back. 
Now, this is reasonable, is it nof? 

Now, we will have some more Coffey (page 53): On this 
*' The True Gospel " side is the quotation from Paul, "All 
scripture is given by ins})iration of God;" and opposite to it 
on the " Missionary Gospel " side, " We need a new revision." 
Now, I wonder if brother Hardy knows anything of our re- 
vision of the Bible ; if he does, he has learned it since we had 
our discussion over in Livingston County. I want to ask 
him whether he accepts the present translation. If he does, 
he cannot identify himself with the primitive Baptists, for at 
the time King James's translation was brought out, the Bap- 
tists protested against it. It was not your people, Mr. Hardy, 
that translated this Bible; you could not translate it, because 
you have not got a man in your denomination capable of 
doing it. You talk a great deal about the amount of the- 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 113 

ology yon preach in jonr denomination, but combine yon all 
together and you cannot translate the Bible from the Greek 
language into its present translation. You just cannot do 
it; you have not the talent among you. 

King James was the head of the church, and in 1611 he 
appointed a commission of Episcopalians to translate the 
Bible; the Baptists had nothing to do with it. It was trans- 
lated in the interest of the Episcopal Church, and King James 
superintended it himself; consequently the Baptists protest- 
ed against the translation at that time, and would have noth- 
ing to do with it. But since then the Baptists have adopted 
it, and they have been ever since trying to prove that it is 
the better translation. You say now, in effect, that those 
Episcopalians were better qualified to translate the Bible for 
you than you were yourselves. I know, though, that the 
ancient Baptists did not do that; I know that they protested 
against it. But now you are dependent on this translation, 
and while you know that, you are heaping your vituperations 
on my people. I think this ought to settle the '^ new revi- 
sion" point. 

I shall note one other point in this "parallel line'' of Cof- 
fey's : 

" Must send them to college 



to learn them to preach." 



" If any man lack wisdom, 
let him ask of God.—Ja7nes.^^ 

IS'ow, remember, this work is indorsed by brother Carr and 
brother Fulkerson. I want them to say if the "wisdom" 
spoken of here refers to education. Kow, with all the anti- 
mission talent here, they ought to be able to answer that. 
What do you say ? Again : 
8 



114 DEBATE ON 

'•Take the oversight there- 1 "I will preach for $500 a 
of; not for filthy lucre. — Pefer."|year.'' 

yes, of course, we say to our people, If you don't give 
the money you will all go to the devil. You will all remem- 
ber what I quoted from Watson on yesterday on that sub- 
ject, that no man became a hireling until he exceeded Bible 
rights. I showed you what the Bible said, that a minister 
should have a support. Suppose it is five hundred or a thou- 
sand dollars; a minister knows best what it takes to support 
him. I showed you where some of your x^reachers would 
work five days in the week and preach on Sunday, and yet 
you heap your vituperations on men who cannot do it. Is 
that just? 

1 will pass to another point. The same writer says, '' We 
are the only people that preach the truth.'' I ask what the 
jVlethodists, Reformers, and members of other denominations 
here, think about that. And it is true tbat these people pro- 
claim from their pulpits on every occasion that they are the 
only people that preach the truth. I know this statement 
will not be called in question, because there are Baptist breth- 
ren before me now who know the truth of it, and who will 
not deny the statement of their own author. The Missionary 
Baptists do not do that. We have as much right to believe 
we are right, as have the Methodists and Reformers, and we 
ought to treat other denominations kindly on that subject. 

Now I will turn to Coftey, where he speaks in regard to- 
the separation that took place in the Little River Association 
in 1832. Coffey, page 37 : "At said meeting the Association 
split on doctrine, and formed two separate bodies : the ma- 
jority taking the name, Original Little River, the other party 
calling themselves the Little River Association." 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 115 

Now, a year ago I stayed at the house of a brother iu Ten- 
nessee who was present at that separation, and he told me 
emphatically a different thing*. He told me exactly how the 
thing took place, and that a minority of them split off. And 
then I stayed all night at sister Stamp's, in Calloway County, 
and she told me the same thing. And I will prove the same 
thing by Benedict, on page 829: <' Little Eiver Association 
was formed in 1813; it was taken from the old Bed River 
community, which is partly in Tennessee, under the head of 
which State I have placed it. 

" Elders Dudley Williams, D. Brown, J. F. Woods and 
Nathan Eoss were the principal preachers in the formation 
of this new interest. It comprised twenty-seven churches, 
twelve ordained preachers, and one thousand eight hundred 
and nine members. It was located in the west of Kentucky 
and Tennessee, and in the southern parts of the Territories 
of Illinois and Missouri. The Highland, Kentucky, and 
Muddy Eiver Associations in Illinois, and some others, have 
been constituted from it. 

" This Association split in 1833, on the Missionary ques- 
tion, and a new and small interest, claiming the name and 
constitution of the original body, was formed from it." 

Now, in a note at the bottom of this same page is the fol- 
lowing: <' Communication of Eev. Joel E. Grace, 1846. This 
industrious correspondent has sent me the minutes of this 
body for a number of years past, and has given me the de- 
tails of the troubles which Little Eiver No. 'J has caused it, 
more fully than my limits will permit me to insert. It ap- 
pears to be a strong and vigorous community, which has 
stood its ground amidst severe opposition from the anti 
party." 



116 DEBATE ON 

So bere we see a strong and vigorous body that has stood 
its ground amidst isevere opposition from the antimission 
party. JS'ow, I claim that in 1846 this Little Eiver Associa- 
tion had two thousand and seventeen members in it. How 
many did you ever have in the Little Eiver Association ? I 
doubt whether you ever had over one thousand. Here in 
1846 it had two thousand and seventeen members, and I ven- 
ture the assertion that it has not reached one thousand since. 
They say that that was a mistake. Then let them bring up 
their minutes. 

Now, ladies and gentlemen, my questions still stand open, 
and not one of them have been answered j no attempt has 
been made to answer them. I will hold them open one day 
longer, and then we will see how it will go. Brother Hardy 
has raised a complaint that I failed to answer his first hour's 
speech. That was merely a quotation from the Scriptures, 
making no argument whatever. It was simply a collection 
of all the passages from the Bible bearing on his point of 
election and atonement. I made an answer to his election 
question, and I made an answer to his atonement point. But 
•why does not he come up and answer the questions that I 
have propounded to him ? I have set them up twice already, 
and I do not think it is necessary for me to do it again. Let 
him come up and say that any of the statements I have made 
are untrue. But I propose to go further than that. I pro- 
pose to prove that he and his people preach that a sinner is 
not a subject of gospel address. I propose to prove that 
they write and preach that the sending of missionaries to the 
heathen is an abomination in the sight of God. They say 
that when we are converted, it is when God sends it ; and I 
know many brethren who have lived and died in waiting for 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 117 

conversioD, but it never came, and they went down to their 
graves without hope. jSrr, Hardy said once before that forty 
thousand dollars had been gotten up and sent by missiona- 
ries to the heathen J and that after five years time they re- 
ported back two Jews converted, and that one of them had 
fallen back. He thought that was a rather big price. That 
is the difference between him and Jesus Christ 5 for Jesus 
Christ said that the whole world was not worth one soul — 
all of it put together. 
Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you. 

[A recess was then taken antil two o'clock p. m.] 



ELDEE HAEDY SAID: 



[Afternoon Session.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : During 
the intermission just now, there was an inquiry made of me 
whether brother Wallace was debating with me or with Cof- 
fey. I was unable to answer, and I turn the question over 
to him. My own opinion was that he had been debating with 
Coffey, and I just suggest to him that if he will attend to my 
arguments and answer them, he will have enough to do. 

Now, I shall notice a few things that brother Wallace re- 
ferred to in his last speech. He said that I stated in a de- 
bate in Crittenden County, that the first church in America 
was set up in 1639. Now, I just made a quotation from Ben- 
edict, and I remarked that no historian disputed what Eene- 



118 DEBATE ON 

diet said, tbat the first church in America was organized in 
1639. 

Then, Mr. Wallace tells us that he can join our church on 
infant baptism, apostasy, or anything else. Did you ever 
know anybody joining the Old Baptist Church on Pedo bap- 
tism, infant baptism, or any other kind of baptism outside of 
immersion ? 

By Mr. Wallace — I said I could get in your church believ- 
ing in infant baptism or apostasy. 

By Mr. Hardy — It is possible that some do creep into our 
church believing these things, but these people know we 
would iiot receive them if we knew it. 

Then, Mr. Wallace says that all the learning among the 
Old Baptists could not translate the Bible. Has he any tes- 
timony to prove that a fact ? The Old Baptists are scattered 
all over the United States. How does he know we have not 
got a man among us with talent or education sufficient to 
translate the Bible, if he saw fit to do it 1 What have the 
Missionary Baptists done ? I don't dispute that they can 
translate the Bible, but in the translation they have trans- 
lated themselves out of a name. At present the Bible reads, 
" In those days came John the Baptist;'' and they read it, 
" In those days came John the Immerser." 

My brother Wallace then appeals to the Methodists, Pres- 
byterians and Campbellites to sympathize with him in his 
complaint against us because we say that we alone i)reach 
the truth. l:^ow, I ask him whether the Campbellites do not 
say they preach the truth, and whether the other denomina- 
tions do not claim the same thing. If Mr. Wallace preaches 
the truth, these other people preach what is untrue, and the 
reverse. The truth must be somewhere. Certainly he will 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 119 

not claim that every religious order in the world preaches the 
truth as it is in the Bible. He appeals for the sympathy of 
the audience, and says we ought to treat our Pedo brethren 
with respect, and so on. You cannot find a Baptist brother 
anywhere that will say I treat them with disrespect. My 
neighbors are Pedobaptists, and I know that I treat them 
respectfully, and they do the same thing by me. Of course 
we do not fall out about it. 

Then Mr. Wallace comes out and boasts about the number 
of his people. Is that any proof that they are right ? The 
Bible says, "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good 
pleasure," &c. 

History of the Ketocton Baptist Association, page 134 : 
^' It is our exi)ectation to live alone. Though few in number, 
we do not conceive we have cause to fear while truth is on 
our side. It has been the lot of the Baptists in every age to 
be a distinct people, from the present time back through the 
dark ages of Popery, although they then might pass by dif- 
ferent names, as Waldenses, Wicklifites, Huszites, &c.; yet 
it is acknowledged they held the same doctrines and admin- 
istered the ordinances in the same manner the Baptists do 
with us at this day." Here they say that though they are 
few in number, they have nothing to fear while truth is on 
their side; and that is where we stand to-day. IS'otwith- 
standing Mr. Wallace boasts of the number of his people, 
and of their wisdom, and their colleges, and all such things, 
the Baptists away back yonder say that they do not fear be- 
<jause they are small in number, for they say the truth is on 
their side. And let me tell you that our people stand on the 
truth as it is in the Lord Jesus Christ 5 we stand there to- 
day, and are persecuted for it, as we have ever been. There 



120 DEBATE OX 

has never been a time in the history of the world when the 
true followers of the Lord Jesus Christ have not been perse- 
cuted. The popular religion has never been that of the Lord 
Jesus Christ, and it never will be. 

Mr. Wallace-claims that the Philadelphia Baptist Associa- 
tion was a Missionary organization. "Well, if they were, I 
reckon they preached Missionary doctrine. I have tried to 
get him to tell me whether he believed in general atonement, 
or whether he did not. The Baptists anciently did not be- 
lieve in general atonement ; for I have read their articles of 
faith, and proved it by them 5 and I expect to read more of 
them before this discussion is over. 

I defy Mr. Wallace, or any other man, to point out any 
articles of faith in the world, i^revious to the division, where 
it is claimed that Christ redeemed the entire race of men 
when he suffered and died on the cross. I will show you, be- 
fore this discussion ends, where this doctrine came from, and 
I will prove that it did not date back to the days of the 
Apostles. 

Minutes Philadelphia Baptist Association, page 150: 
"When all the human race, by the sin of the first man, were 
involved in guilt, Rom. v. 12, and fallen under condemna- 
tion, and all became the children of wrath, it would mani- 
festly be doiug them no injustice if they were, to every in- 
dividual, left in that state, and eternally punished for their 
sins; this would have been their i^roper desert, their just 
reward. But God, out of his mere free grace and love, with- 
out any moving cause in the parties chosen, hath predes- 
tinated some unto life, through a Mediator, Eph. i. 4; Eom. 
xi. 5, 6, (without any wrong done to others) together with all 
the means subservient to this end, viz., their redemption by 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 121 

the blood of Christ, and renovation by the Spirit of holiness, 
to the praise of his glorious grace; the other left to act in 
sin, to their final destruction, to the glory of divine justice. — 
Eom. ix. 22, 23." Is not this the very doctrine the brother is 
fighting here in this discussion ? Is not he fighting the doc- 
trine that the Baptists have forever believed and preached 
from the days of the Apostles down to the present time ? 
Mr. Wallace says that we are afraid of Arminianism. I have 
only to say that Baptists have ever been afraid of it. 

Page 263 : " Good works are by no means the foundation 
of our acceptance or justification in the sight of God. Noth- 
ing that we ever have done, and nothing possible for us ever 
to perform, will have the least concern or weight in the im- 
portant affair of our acquittal from guilt, and acceptance as 
righteous before the tribunal of a holy God. Kothing on 
earth or in heaven can be found to answer this glorious pur- 
pose but the finished righteousness and the atoning death 
of the great Immanuel, God with us. 

" It is equally true, and may as evidently be deduced from 
the word of truth, that foreseen good works are not the cause 
of our election to salvation. One end of our election was to 
bring us to love and practice holiness; and, therefore, good 
works, or holiness of* life, could not have been the reason of 
the eternal purpose to recover us to the divine image and 
favor. The purpose of election stands • not of works, but of 
him who calleth'. — Rom. ix. 11. All the graces of the Spirit, 
and all our acts of true religion and virtue, are to be con- 
sidered as effects of the unconditional and eternal counsel of 
God in Christ. 

''And permit us, dear brethren, further to add, that th^ 
same reasons, in effect, forbid us to suppose that good works 



122 DEBATE ON 

are the conditiou of our regeneration or of our being called 
out of darkness into marvellous light. If we are so happy as 
to be the subject of this glorious change, not a tribute of 
praise is to be ascribed to ourselves ; but all the glory is to 
be given to God, ' who hath saved us, and called us with a 
holy calling, not according to our works, but according to 
his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ 
Jesus before the world began.' — 2d Tim. i. 9." Have you ever 
heard a Missionary Baptist preach such as that ? They say 
they believe in grace, but the question before them is, Do 
they believe in salvation by grace alone ? 

Page 311 : ]N"ow remember these are the minutes of the 
Philadelphia Baptists from 1707 to 1807. Where I have 
turned to now is a circular letter, written by the instruction 
of the association, and adopted by the association, and in- 
serted in its minutes in 1795. Mr. Wallace claims that that 
was a Missionary body. Well, just hear what they have to 
say: "From what we have said, various useful observations, 
by way of inference, might be ma^e; but we shall only men- 
tion two: First, that according to the gospel, the atonement 
of Christ did not extend to every individual of the human 
race 5 and, secondly, that the gospel contains no conditional 
offers of salvation." Do the Missionary Baptists of to-day 
preach in that way? Do they believe that way to-day? 
*' We may mention these, because some in our days seem to 
favor such notions, and some others, that tend to man and 
go a great way towards sullying the glory of the gospel. 

" In regard to the first, if atonement was made for all, it 
was God's intention that it should; that intention must have 
its full effect ; the effect must be that all must and will be 
saved. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 123 

"If Christ answered the demands of law and justice for 
all, and paid the price in full, then there must be guiltless 
persons in hell for want of being made meet for heaven. 
Christ has done his part, but the Spirit declines doing his. 
Why God should appoint satisfaction to be made for all, and 
afterwards not renew and sanctify all, and bring them to 
heaven, must be very strange, and utterly inconsistent with 
the glory and perfections of him who does nothing in vain, 
who never does a part, without doing the whole, who always 
finishes what he begins. 

" It is manifest from the Holy Scriptures that Christ made 
atonement for his people, Lsa. liii. 8j Luke i. 68 5 his sheep, 
John X. 15, 26, 29 j xvii. 9; those that were given him, Heb. 
ii. 13j who were redeemed from among others. — Eev. v. 9. 

"As to the second, to make salvation conditional, would 
rob God of his sovereignty, and make his glory to depend on 
man, while at the same time it would give room for boasting. 
It would also convert the gospel of the grace of God into a 
new law. Is the law of works to be preferred to the cove- 
nant of grace ? If it be of grace, says the Apostle, then it is 
no more of works, otherwise grace is no more grace. What! 
make our happiness depend on man? If we will do part, 
God will do the rest, Alas I what can man do in the busi- 
ness of his salvation first or last, to merit or promote it? Is 
he altogether dependent on God? Yea, verily, that at every 
step, in the beginning and progress of the glorious work, he 
may cry, Grace, grace ; and whosoever glorieth, let him glory 
in the Lord." 

Now, if brother Wallace indorses the doctrine of this peo- 
ple, why does not he come up in fellowship with them? I for 
one will take in any man who indorses this Philadeli:)hia- 



124 DEBATE ON 

Baptist doctrine. We have never denied this, and we have 
never denied it being the doctrine of the Bible preached by 
Christ and his Apostles. If the Missionary Baptists to-day 
believe this, let them come up and admit it, and not go to 
fighting the system upon which the Old Baptists of to-day 
stand. 

Now, I want to refer to Coffey, page 15 : " After our pain- 
ful separation from the Missionaries in 1836, a number of 
churches in the bounds of the Old Concord Association met 
together and formed the Stone River Association. We had 
then, as was generally supposed, a strong and happy union j 
but alas! there was an element of heresy incorporated in 
that body as bad, if not worse, than that from which we had 
just withdrawn '' (page 25.) Coffey tells us here of the heresy 
brought to view here. The brother says that it was the 
^' Two-Seed doctrine," and then he tells you that Coffey refers 
to Watson, and says that doubtless this heresy was the 
^'Konresurrectionism doctrine." Xow, I want him to sepa- 
rate the two, and tell us the distinction between Nonresur- 
rectionism and the Two-Seed doctrine. 

See Watson, page 293: Speaking of the Two-Seed doc- 
trine, he tells us what that doctrine is. 

''7. They affirm that, at death, the soul returns to God, 
and the seed of Satan to him. 

^'8. They deny the resurrection of the bodies of the just 
and unjust." 

Now, Coffey was right when he said that doubtless Wat- 
son had reference to the Nonressurrection doctrine, for the 
Two-Seed doctrine is the Xonresurrect'on doctrine, and you 
cannot doubt it. Watson comes out and admits it; and 
therefore it is clear that Coffev told the truth. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 125 

Kow, I have stated before this iotelligeut congregation, 
and i^roved it, that the Old Baptists never have taught that 
Christ redeemed the race of man. That has never been the 
doctrine of the Baptists. They have ever believed that there 
was a people chosen in Christ before the foundation of the 
world, and Christ redeemed those people. 

Now, I am going to speak of Arminiauism. Mr. Wallace 
has talked considerably about Arminianism, and says the 
Old Baptists are afraid of it. Well, they did not use to be 
afraid of it, because it was not in existence among the an- 
cient Baptists. I am going to tell you where Arminianism 
originated, and it originated right where this universal- 
atonement system did. 

Benedict, first volume, page 189 : '-The Bap sts in Eng- 
land are divided into General and Particular, and have been 
since soon after the Eeformation. Their principal difterence 
is in point of doctrine." We see that one sect of these Bap- 
tists believed in general atonement, and that the other be- 
lieved in special atonement. 

Benedict, first volume, page 224: 

" General Baptists. — This term has trom the beginning 
of the Eeformation been applied to that class of Baptists in 
England who have held universal redemption. The Particu- 
lar Baptist are strictly Calvinistic in their creed. But those 
who are called General lean to the American system. The 
former hold that Christ died for the elect only, while the lat- 
ter plead that the Saviour by his death and sufferings has 
made salvation possible for all.'' 

Here the distinction is clearly drawn. One was called 
General Baptists, and they were so called from the fact that 
they believed in general atonement j and the other was called 



126 BEBATE ON 

Calvinistic Baptists, because they believed in a special atone- 
ment. Notice here particularly that this people believed in 
a general atonement, and that the Baptists were divided on 
that question, and that that began at the time of the Refor- 
mation. You cannot trace this system beyond the Eeforma- 
tion, for it began when James Arminius began to preach it* 

Benedict, second volume, page 61 : " The reader must keep 
in mind that in this day those were called Arminians who 
held to the universal provision of the gospel, or that the 
atonement of Christ was general in its nature." Here again 
we are told distinctly what Arminianism is. 

Benedict, first volume, page 41: " The Arminians were so 
called from James Arminius, who died at Leyden, in Hol- 
land, in 1609, just a hundred years after Calvin was born. 
Arminius warmly opposed Calvin's notions respecting pre- 
destination." 

Mosheim, second volume, page 279: '^ The Arminians de- 
rive their name and origin from James Arminius." Here,, 
too, we learn that Arminianism is general atonement, that 
when Christ died on the cross he made salvation possible for 
all men. We have seen, however, that the Baptists did not 
believe this doctrine previous to the Reformation. 

Benedict, page 801 : " The Concord Association split on doc- 
trine about twenty years past j both bodies called themselves 
Concord ; the Calvinistic party claimed to be firs% and the Ar- 
minian division was accounted the secondP Here we see that 
Benedict acknowledges himself that one was called Calvin- 
istic Baptists and the other Arminians, that one people be- 
lieved in general atonement and the other in special atone- 
ment. 

And \q^. me remark further that in the division of the Lit- 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 127 

tie River Association in 1833, we find that they split on that 
very doctrine, one party believing in general atonement, and 
the other party not believing it. One party believed that 
Christ redeemed his people from under the curse of the law, 
and that he died for them; while the other party believed 
that he died for the race of man. Now, I want to know if, 
at the present day, the Missionary Baptists are not really the 
Arminian party. But they do not take the j)osition here that 
they are Calvinists. Show me your position and prove it by 
history, and trace your party from the days of the Apostles 
down to the present time. . 



REV. MR. WALLACE SAID 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am 
before you again, feeling easy and comfortable. Mr. Hardy 
has so far failed to answer any of the questions I put to him 
yesterday morning, and I have no idea he will attempt to 
answer them. To-morrow, at noon, I will commence on them 
myself. 

The first thing that he started out with in his last speech 
was a question as to whether I was debating with him or 
with Coffey. I quoted from Coffey as one of their own 
writers, and left it with Mr. Hardy to establish him as an 
honest historian. I have proved emphatically by history 
that Coffey is not an honest historian j yet there are brethren 
here who indorse him as such. Kow, I ask them why they 
have not met my charge that he is not an honest historian* 



128 DEBATE ON 

They Lave not met tliem, nor will tbey attempt to aieet tbem. 
I think I have proved my charges on that point to the satis- 
faction of this people. 

Mr. Hardy quotes from Watson, and attempts to prove 
that Coffey was right in saying that Watson referred to non- 
resurrectionism. Did not Watson say distinctly that it was 
"Two-Seedism?" And he then calls on me to make a dis- 
tinction between nonresurrectionism and Two-Seedism. The 
Two-Seed doctrine is that God made a portion of the people, 
and a small portion at that, and that the devil made the rest; 
that God gets what he made, and the devil gets the biggest 
part. That is Two-Seedism. The Old Baptist doctrine is 
that God made them all; that he gives the devil the best 
portion of them, and he takes the few. That is the distinc- 
tion. If God sent Jesus Christ to die for a few, he was 
mighty partial to let the devil have so many. O, says brother 
Hardy, we are the sheep — a little flock. Why, so far as that 
is concerned, we have here in the United States a denomina- 
tion called the Seven Day Baptists, that is fewer in number 
than you are. There are only seven thousand of them in the 
United States, and you are much stronger than that. Con- 
sequently you are gone up on your '< little flock " business. 

Mr. Hardy says, " I have tried to get Mr. Wallace to say 
whether he believes in general atonement or not." I ask the 
question. Am I under any obligation to answer it again? 
ifow, I know there *are ladies and gentlemen before me of 
discernment. They know that I answered it twice yesterday. 
Did not I tell him emphatically that Jesus Christ died for the 
just and the unjust — that by the grace of God he had tasted 
"death for every man? And does not the Bible say sof Here 
is another question for Mr. Hardy. God in his divine word 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 12^ 

says he will send his rain on the just and the unjust. IS'ow, 
draw a distinction between the two expressions. Bring your 
matliematical powers to bear on this, and tell me the differ- 
ence between the two expressions. Bring your theological 
powers together on that, and may be by to-morrow morning 
you can frame an answer. 

Now, Mr. Hardy in his last speech had a great deal to say 
about works. Did not I ask him on yesterday, as the rules 
say you shall not charge a thing on your opponent until he 
avows it, did not I ask him once or twice to make the charge! 
If he will make it, I am ready to answer it. Of course, when 
I come to produce my negative proof I will answer it. Mr. 
Hardy fears to make the charge, but simply wants to make 
an impression. He had a great deal to say about Calvinists 
and Arminians. I will show you my system long before the 
Reformation, and long before the Oalvinists or Arminians had 
an existence. I am not an Arminian, I am not a Calvinist; 
I am a Bible Baptist. I am not a follower of Calvin, because 
he believed in infant baptism, and so did Arminius, and I 
don't believe the doctrine of either of them. I can show you. 
articles of faith made long before these men were born. I 
stand on the doctrine and teachings of God's divine word, 
and there I will stand as long as I have an existence; as long 
as my reason is enthroned I propose to stand on its teach- 
ings. But I tell you, before this discussion closes, when I 
assume the burden of proof, I will cross the Reformation. 

Now let us have a little more Coffey. A friend of mine 

asked me if I could not get along without so much Coffey; I 

suppose some here have had enough, but I will try some 

more. On page 107 Coffey says . <' In 1775 an application 

9 



130 DEBATE ON 

was made for the Association to ordain an itinerant to offici- 
ate among tbemj but so cautious were they of doing any- 
thing which could be construed into an assumption of power, . 
that they declined."^ That is a quotation from Benedict, page 
606. I judge from this that Coffey must have seen Bene- 
dict's work. Now I will show you where Coffey has garbled 
this quotation 5 and what are we to think of a writer who 
garbles a quotation to sustain what he says? Is he an honest 
historian? I will show you where Coffey here makes a full 
period at "'declined," that there is not even a comma in 
Benedict. 

Benedict, page 606: " In 1775 an application was made for 
the Association to ordain an itinerant minister to officiate 
among them; but so cautious were they of doing anything 
which could be construed into an assumption of power, that 
they declined the proposal, .and advised the church to a differ- 
ent and more consistent course.'''' Here, in the Philadelphia 
Association, a certain plan came up before them in 1775,* 
that plan did not suit them, and they declined the proposal, 
and advised the church to another different and more con- 
sistent course. Do you see where Mr. Coffey garbles this 
quotation? And I ask, Is a man who would do that honest? 
I do not care if he was one of my own brethren who would 
do such a thing, I would be in favor of expelling him, and 
never admit him again ; much less would I recommend his 
work to all inquirers after truth. 

Now, as to the point of whom Christ came into the world 
to save, notice the following from Coffey, page 126: '' Christ 
came into the world to save his people from their sins; that 
he by his sufferings and death canceled all their sins; that 
in bis own appointed time and way he will call, regenerate 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 131 

and sanctify them ; in short, manifest himself to each and 
every one of them; and that it is impossible they can refuse 
the call; did not manifest such anxiety from fear that sinners 
would be lost." 

Here Coffey says Christ had no anxiety for the salvation 
of sinners; and that is the doctrine of Mr. Hardy's people, 
preached throughout this land and country. IsTo, say they, 
he came to save the " sheep." They are sheep-feeders. Dr. 
Watson says " there are people among us who are good 
sheep-feeders," but that they are bad hunters. He says they 
are bad fishermen, and when they go for fish they never catch 
any. That is so, because they don't cast the bait in the right 
place. And just as long as you refuse to do right, it will 
have bad results. Watson says their church has failed. 
" Few," he says, " are coming into our churches;" and that if 
we (they) do not do this thing, other people will do it. 

And brother Hardy talks about predestination. Xow, I 
am one of the best predestinarianists in the world. For the 
good Book tells me if you don't do your duty you will be 
punished with many stripes. God says if a man knows his 
duty and does not do it, he will be striped. 

jOne or two more quotations from Coffey and I will leave 
him for this evening. Here, on page 153, he rants about the 
Missionary Baptists stealing their name. Xow, I am not 
here to defend any such of our brethren. It may be that 
they will steal ; but I will defend their intelligence. How- 
ever, when our brethren go out to steal, they will steal some- 
thing better than a forty year old name. They are mighty 
afraid the Missionary Baptists will steal their name that they 
have had since 1832. They had some increase up to 1S40, 
and then went back again, and J will show you how many 



132 DEBATE ON 

they have fallen off since that time. I have asked brother 
Hardy to say how many they have excluded, and he has 
failed to answer. 

Just one more from Coffey. On page 173 we have the doc- 
trine of one brother Carr, who wrote the appendix to this 
work. I said on yesterday that they preached that a sinner 
was not a subject of gospel address, and they said they 
preached without discrimination. Here is what brother Carr 
says : " They remain in a dead state until quickened by the 
voice, the Spirit, the power of God Almighty. When quick- 
ened, one is then a subject of gospel address." Of course, 
the inference is that until he is quickened he is not a subject 
of gospel address. " When quickened, one is then a subject 
of gospel address ; having had the blinded eyes opened, and 
the deaf ear unstopped." Here he says that when the sin- 
ner has his blinded eyes opened, and the deaf ear unstopped, 
he then becomes a subject of gospel address j but before 
that, he is not a subject of gospel address j and that is the 
reason they don't call on the sinner to repent, just as Watson 
charges them with preaching the gospel as to the sheep ; and 
that is their doctrine throughout this land and country. 
They claim that a sinner is so dead in sin that he cannot hear 
the gospel of God. Paul said he was not ashamed to preacli 
the gospel even at Rome, right were the heathen were. He 
said, " I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the 
power of God unto salvation.'" But these people deny -that 
it has anything to do with salvation — that the sinner is saved 
from eternity. I can prove that. I heard it from your pul- 
pit, and I know there are others here who have heard the 
same thing : and if it is disputed. I can bring the charge 
home. It is written here in Coffey, in the appendix, written 



CHTJSCH IDENTITY. 133 

by a man Carr, who recommeDds Coffey ; and I have proved 
Coffey to be a dishonest historian, and no one here will at- 
tempt to vindicate him. Some of his neighbors are here, I 
suppose, and they have never made an attempt to vindicate 
him since I have made the charge. Even brother Hardy 
went back and showed missionary operations that Baptists 
said they commended, and consequently he cannot vindicate 
the historian on that point. 

Now I am done with Coffey, until I come to the articles of 
faith. I told you yesterday I would prove my position by 
his own works. Eev. P. Douglas Gouie, a Pedobaptist 
writer, published a book called " The Churches and Sects of 
the United States," and under the head of Antimission Bap- 
tists the following occurs : •' The Baptists with the above 
prefix are such as refuse to unite with the Eegular Baptist 
Church in the support of missionary operations, and some 
other objects of a general and denominational character. It 
is understood that their refusal is based upon the ground of 
the unscriptural character of the missionary operations of 
the present day. Indeed, many go so far as to deny the 
utility and lawfulness of modern missionary efforts, and main- 
tain that no requirements are made by Jesus Christ in rela- 
tion to supporting missionaries among the heathen. The An- 
timission Baptists do not prevail very extensively. in the 
Eastern or Middle States, but are found principally in the 
Western or Southwestern portions of the United States. 
They were formerly all connected with the Regular Baptists, 
but for certain reasons preferred withdrawing their fellow- 
ship from the churches or associations with which they had 
been united, and forKiing a denomination of their own." 



134 DEBATE ON 

I^Tow, this is the testimony of an impartial historian, who is 
a Pedobaptist. 

Kow I will quote from Hitchcock, who is another Pedo 
writer, and equally impartial, and I will prove exactly the 
same thing. And this, I think, ought to settle the contro- 
versy on that point. See Hitchcock, page 1117, under the 
head of Baptists : " Who hold that a personal profession of 
faith and an immersion in water are essential to baptism. 
They claim that they have existed as christian communities 
from the days of the Apostles, and have held pure the doc- 
trines and ordinances of the gospel through all ages. The 
first Baptist Church in America was founded by Eoger Wil- 
liams in Providence, E. I., in 1639." He then goes on to give 
the number of churches, members, &:c., in England ; but I 
will pass on to what he says of the Baptists in the tTnited 
States. " In the United States the growth of the denomina- 
tion was not rapid till after the war of the Eevolution. They 
have now eight thousand three hundred and forty-six minis- 
ters, twelve thousand nine hundred and fifty-five churches, 
and one million ninety-four thousand eight hundred and six 
members. They have under their control thirty colleges and 
fourteen theological seminaries. In the British Provinces 
of America, four hundred and forty-four ministers, six hun- 
dred and fifty churches, and sixty-two thousand four hun- 
dred and fifteen members. Besides the Eegular Baptists, 
there are nine other minor sects, which have five thousand 
and twenty-two ministers, eight thousand seven hundred and 
ten churches, and seven hundred and fifty-nine thousand 
five hundred and seventy-six members. These minor sects 
are Old School Baptists, Free Will Baptists," and so on. I 
repeat that this is another impartial historian, who says em- 



I 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 135 

phaticallj that brother Hardy's denomination has left the 
Eegular Baptist Church. E"ow, let them call Hitchcock a 
dishonest historian, if they want to : that is their privilege ; 
but if they can prove that these historians are nntrnthful, 
they may set aside what they want to. 

Hitchcock, also on the same page, under the title of Anti- 
mission Baptists : ''Antimission Baptists — call themselves 
Old School Baptists.'' Elder Trott says that when they left 
the church they took the distinct appellation of "Old School," 
and here we find Hitchcock says the same thing. So far as 
your name is concerned, as distinguishing you from other de- 
nominations, I do not object to itj but if you mean to say 
you are older than other Baptist denominations, I deny it. I 
have shown that it is not the case. 

I shall now come up to our own Baptist historians. I have 
heretofore dealt with theirs, but I propose after this to take 
up our own works and prove what I have said emphatically. 
So far as this matter- of general atonement is concerned, I 
assure you I will reach that, and I assure you that I will 
cross the Eeformation. I will show you that these people 
have changed their articles of faith ; for I defy them to show 
an article of faith in use among them like the one of the Gen- 
eral Association of 1689 that the Philadelphia Association 
adopted. I will show the use of tracts a thousand years ago. 
A tract was merely a discussion ; and yet you are forever 
heaping your vituperations on these tracts, and yet here they 
were in existence long before the Eeformation. Here we are 
told in history that they were scattered long before the Ee- 
formation. I will show you also where missionaries were 
sent among the heathen long before. That is something they 
-have never heard of, I suppose, not even in the United States, 



136 DEBATE ON 

except the case of broilier Fulkersou, who was se-ux to Kan- 
sas and had his expenses paid. They abuse missionary ope- 
rations ; and so far as going into the highways, as command- 
ed by Jesus Christ, they have never done it, but have taken 
up their time in heaping their calumniations upon us. 



ELDEE HAEDY SAID: 



Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : I am 
again before you, ready to proceed. It seems to me that 
while Mr. Wallace complains a great deal of Coffey, he likes 
it very much. If I disliked Coffey as much as he seems to, 
I don't think I would use it as much as he does. He wants 
to make it appear to this people that Coffey garbled a quota- 
tion from Benedict in regard to the ordaining of an itinerant 
in the Philadelphia Association. ]^ow, it would seem to me 
that where Benedict refers to this matter, he is quoting from 
the minutes of the Philadelphia Association. He does not 
attempt to give the words, but, I suppose, means to give it 
in substance. However, he does not give it as it appears in 
the minutes of the Philadelphia Baptist Association. It 
seems there was a query came before that association upon 
that subject, and that association said it had no such right. 
The Philadelphia Association in 1775 claimed emphatically 
that they had no right to ordain an itinerant and send him 
out to preach. If they had no right at that time, I want to 
know where the Missionary Baptists get the right to do it to- 
day. Has not the Philadelphia Association as much right to 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 137 

do that thing as afiy people on earth 1 Did not they have as 
much right as the people of to-day have ? Mr. Wallace 
makes a great to do here because the Philadelphia Baptists 
would not do as he does. 1 may say that I do not wonder at 
that 

Then he reads from Coffey on page 126, and makes the 
statement that Coffey says that Jesus Christ has no anxiety 
for the salvation of sinners. I certainly can find no such 
statement in Coffey as t^hat. I will read the quotation, and then 
leave it to this congregation who has been garbled. Coffey, 
page 125: " But the Eegular Baptists, believing that Jesus 
Christ came into the world to save his people from their sins; 
that by his sufferings and death canceled all their sins; that 
in his own appointed time and way he will call, regnerate 
and sanctify them; in short, manifest himself to each and 
every one of them ; and that it is impossible they can refuse 
the call ; did not manifest such anxiety from fear that sinners 
would be lost. They are still promulgating the gospel for 
the purpose of the edifying of the body of Christ; for the 
perfecting of the saints." I leave that matter right there. 

When my last half hour of time ran out I was speaking 
in regard to what were termed •' Calvinistic Baptists." Mr. 
Wallace says that he is not a Calvinistic Baptist nor an Ar- 
minian Baptist. As far as the Calvinistic are concerned, 
they were not alone called Calvinistic Baptists ; they went 
by many names, and they were reproachfully called Calvin- 
istic. We find that Calvin believed the doctrines of the 
Waldenses. I know that he believed in sprinkling for bap- 
tism, but he believed in the doctrine of election and predes- 
tination, and. that God chose his people in Christ before the 
foundation of the world, just like the Waldenses believed,. 



13S DEBATE ON 

and just like these articles of faith that I have been reading- 
to-day show. 

See Benedict, second volume, page 419: " From nearly the 
beginning of the Baptists in America, there have been some 
who have opposed a number of the principle articles in the 
Oalvinistic creed. For a long time, most of these brethren 
resided in Ehode Island and its vicinity, where their history 
has been related. For some years there were many of those, 
improperly called Separate Baptists, in Virginia, and the 
more Southern States, who were called Arminians, because 
they maintained that by the sufferings of Christ salvation 
was made possible for every individual of Adam's ruined 
posterity. The issue of the contest on this point may be 
found under the head of Virginia. And besides, there have 
always been some churches and many individuals who have 
objected to some of the strong points of Calvinism, or adopted 
them with some peculiar modifications ; but no very con- 
siderable party of this character arose until a little more Irhan 
thirty years ago, when one was founded by Elder Benjamin 
Eandal, of I:^ew Durham, i^ew Hampshire. This Elder Ean- 
dal, as his biographer observes, was led, about 1780, *' to ob- 
je'ct against the whole doctrine of John Calvin, with respect 
to eternal, particular, personal, unconditional election and 
reprobation." Benedict states here there were no people of 
a very considerable number until about 1780 that opposed 
this doctrine that is set forth here that Calvin believed j and 
the Waldenses, as I have said, believed the same thing. 
And all the Baptists that come uj) from the days of the 
Apostles believe this doctrine of particular redemption. 

Jones's Church History, page 347 : '^ Pope Pius II. declares 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 139 

the doctrine taught bv Calvin 'to be the same as that of the 
Waldenses.'" 

Orchard, page 253: "Yet the Baptists were still a scat- 
tered community, and were named now Anabaptist and 
Picard Calvinists." 

Orchard, page 296: " Lindamus, a Catholic bishop, asserts, 
Calvin inherited the doctrines of the Waldenses.'- 

This proves to my mind that Calvin believed in the doc- 
trine of the Waldenses. It has been asserted that that doc- 
trine originated with Calvin -, but history states positively 
that the doctrine of the Waldenses and that of Calvin was 
the same 5 and if we believe in the doctrine of Calvin to-day, 
we believe the doctrine of the Waldenses, because Orchard 
says distinctly that Calvin inherited his doctrine from the 
Waldenses. 

In Benedict, second volume, page 34: "The Ketocton 
Association was formed in 1766, and was the fifth associa- 
tion of Calvinistic Baptists in America." It says that this is 
the fifth association of Baptists organized in America, and it 
says that the first association organized in America was or- 
ganized on the very platform that the Eegular Baptists sfand 
on to-day. The Ketocton Association was the fifth that was 
organized on the Calvinistic platform. Tell me where the 
Missionary Baptists were then. Why, it was long before 
they came into existence. 

See History of the Ketocton Association, page o3 : "A very 
great difference appears between the primitive preachers and 
some modern ones ; when persons were wrought upon and 
their hearts opened, and inquiry made what they should do 
to be saved, the former instructed them to believe in the 
Lord Jesus, to repent and be baptized in the name of the 



140 DEBATE ON 

Lord Jesas, for the remission of sin, and they should receive 
the gift of the Holy Ghost ; but the latter say, Come, be 
prayed for 5 after prayer they are sometimes asked if they 
feel no better, whether some alterations have not taken place, 
-whether some comfort has not been afforded the mindy and 
then a loud-toned exhortation, until weak minds, and soft, 
tender passions have been reduced to a state unaccountable 
to themselves. How easy for persons so confounded to be 
persuaded they are converted, and so be lulled into the em- 
braces of a strong delusion." We are told here that there is 
a difference between the ancient preachers and the modern 
preachers. Don't yon know when the question came up on 
the day 01 Pentecost as to what men were to do to be saved, 
the reply was, *' Eepent and be baptized every one of you in 
the name of the Lord Jesus Chiist for the remission of sins, 
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the 
promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are 
afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call?'' and 
not as many as the Missionary Baptists shall call. The call- 
ing belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ; and I tell you when 
he* calls them to repentance it comes. Now, I profess to 
preach repentance to the people, but I preach it not in the 
name of the sinner or preacher, but in the name of the Lord 
Jesus Christ. I do not teli people that a sinner can repent 
nniil Jesus can give him repentance. 

Mosheim, first volume, page 165: ^' When once the minis- 
ters of the church had departed from the ancient simplicity 
of religious worship, and sullied the native purity of divine 
truth by a motley n:,ixture of human inventions, it was dif- 
ficult to set bounds to this growing corruption." 

History of the Ketocton Association, page 43 : ''But not 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 141 

all the device or artitice exercised by men can disappoint the 
divine i)ur|>(>s*% oi •destroy the child of promise, nor prevent 
bis conversion a moment longer than divine power thinks 
iproi)er to delay his interference." Did not the Baptists back 
.yon<ler teach that it was not by means that the repentance 
was brought to men f Mr. Wallace has had a right smart to 
say about means. Let me say here today that I believe all 
the means in the salvation of a sinner is ordained of God. I 
believe it is all taught in the Scriptures. I never have denied 
means, but let me tell you that I deny that the inventions of 
men are any means in the salvation of sinners. And when 
people come up and try to force repentance on these people 
by means outside of the word of God, let me tell you not to 
receive it, but take the Bible teachings, and leave out every- 
thing else. 

Mr. Wallace seems to be mightily afraid of the articles of 
faith, the articles of faith we hold, and those that they hold. 
They say that we believe in the Old and the !N^ew Testament 
as the only rule of practice. Now, I want to know if it says 
you can go outside of the Bible practice and do things that 
the Bible says nothing about. The Bible says that it is the 
only rule. 

Belcher, page 243. This is %, Missionary Baptist historian, 
and Mr. Wallace avers, a truthful man : "A century ago, 
comparatively little activity, or concern for the extension of 
the christian cause distinguished the Bai)tist denomination 
in any part of the world. Jonathan Edwards, in this coun- 
try, and Andrew Fuller, of England, were raised up in the 
providence of God to excite increased attention to the the- 
ology of the churches, while George Whitfield and John. 
Wesley, like ' Sons of Thunder,' awoke up many thousands, 



142 ' DEBATE ON 

on both continents, to serious thought. As this work spread,, 
there grew with it a vastly increased desire that men, every- 
where, should "become acquainted with religion ; and Sunday 
Schools, and missionary, Bible, and religious societies, to ac- 
complish this purpose, rose up, in rapid succession, through- 
out Christendom ; and no man will deny but that they have 
accomplished great results. 

'•It was scarcely to be expected, however, that so vast a 
change could take place without some degree of opposition; 
and the Baptist body was soon found to present two contend- 
ing parties. One of these maintained that the commission of 
the Redeemer to preach the gospel to all nations, and the 
conduct of the Apostles in teaching that God had commanded 
all men everywhere to repent, made it imperative on the 
church to seek the evangelization of the world ; and for this 
purpose they formed missionary and other kindred institu- 
tions. The other party, however, insisted that the accom- 
plishment of the divine purpose did not depend on the efforts 
of man, however zealous, and that as all these societies were 
of human origin, they were a departure from Baptist princi- 
ples, and offensive to God. This contention, more or less, 
came into action in the various associations throughout the 
country, and the parties soon feegan to separate from each 
other." ****** 

'' It will be seen from this statement that the Old School 
Baptists do not repudiate the general doctrine of the Bap- 
tist body, nor have they renounced their views of church 
government, or changed their mode of worship/' As I re- 
marked, this is from a Missionary Baptist writer, and I think 
it is a good deal for a Missionary to say. I venture to say 
that brother Wallace would not say any such a thing as that. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 143 

^It is possible, however, that he will now deny what this Mis- 
sionary Baptist states. If he denies it, he must impeach the 
veracity of his own historian. 

Cramp's History, page 576 : "In 1813 the Baptist Churches 
of the United States were awakened to a sense of their in- 
debtedness to the world by the gracious interposition which 
brought Judson and Eice among them. Then their mis- 
sionary career commenced." 

Benedict, second volume, pages 145 and 146 : " In 1800 
the proposition of the Philadelphia Association to establish a 
general conference of the Baptist Association throughout the 
United States was taken into consideration, and it was voted 
xhat ' if a well-digested plan should be devised for such a 
coalition, in which the proper objects were clearly pointed 
out, with suitable measures to attain them, and the danger 
of perversion and abuse well guarded against, and if a gen- 
eral concurrence in the undertaking should be obtained of 
the churches in the United States, this Association are dis- 
posed to give it their support.' In the same year, the Asso- 
ciation recommended to churches destitute of pastors, to en- 
deavor to support public worship by engaging some of their 
members to read sermons and take a lead in prayer." 

" In 1801 they i^etitioned the Legislature for an amend- 
ment of the law, i^assed the preceding year, imposing re- 
strictions on religious meetings, so far as respects persons of 
color. The petition was renewed the next year, and attend- 
ed with a degree of success. The thanks of the association 
were returned to General Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Ma- 
jor Thomas Pinkney, and Henry William Desaussure Esq, 
for their patriotic exertions in its behalf. 

" In 1802 provision was made for the employment of a mis- 



144 DEBATE ON 

sionary to travel and preach in destitute places. The object 
failed of accomplishment for the want of a suitable person 
to undertake it." It seems from this that at that time they 
had no suitable man to perform this service. 



EEV, ME. WALLACE SAID 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am. 
before you again with my offsetting argument, but I desire 
first to call the attention of the congregation to the fact that 
Mr. Hardy has not yet answered the first of the questions I 
put to him, and there are eighteen of them, and I venture to 
say he will not Some of them he could answer, and others 
he could not. Those of them that are diametrically opposed 
to his doctrine he doesn't want to touch, and of course those 
that he cannot touch he will not attempt, because he doesn't 
know. 

ISTow, he says in regard to my charge of garbling by Cof- 
fey, that the quotation I referred to was taken from the min- 
utes of the Philadelphia Baptist Association. As to that, I 
have to say that Coffey gives the page of the book where he 
takes the garbled quotation from. He says on page 107 of 
his work, " We will quote from Benedict, page 606." I have 
before compared his quotation with the original in Benedict, 
and shown conclusively where Coffey garbled. Now, I pre- 
sume from the picture of brother Coffey in his work that he 
is a very old man, and I suppose when he was reading Ben- 
edict at this point his spectacles must have dropped very low 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 145 

down on his nose, because this quotation that he makes is at 
the very bottom of the page. If his spectacles had been 
higher up he would hare found the following on the same 
page. Benedict, page 606 : " In the minutes for 1769, among 
the delegates were Hezekiah Smith and John Gano, and their 
doings show a strong solicitude for the welfare of E. I. Col- 
lege, then i'j its infancy, and collections and appropriation 
for ministerial education, 

" In 1774, by request, brother John Gano gave an account 
of his travels to the southward by appointment of the asso- 
ciation. By which it appears that he bad been indefatigable 
in his labors, and that a minister traveling annually on the 
plan proposed may answer very valuable purposes." 

Kow, Mr. Hardy says emphatically that missions com- 
menced in 1816, and Coffey says the same thing, and it is at- 
tempted to vindicate that assertion, when we see frdm the 
very page that Coffey makes his quotation from, a contradic- 
tion of it. Therefore I charge Coffey with being a dishonest 
historian ; and, as I before remarked, any man in my denom- 
ination that would be guilty of such a thing, I would be in 
favor of excluding him from it. I thought I was through 
with Coffey a little while ago, but I find I will have to refer 
to him again. See Coffey, page l*z2. Here he is speaking of 
Gano, Miller and Vanhorn, and he asks, " Were they of the 
modern type ? Were the}^ * the best of men waiting, only 
the money is wanting ^ to enable the ' Board ■ to send them ? 
And were they sent at a stipulated salary by life directors f 
Or did not the Philadelphia Association, on receiving the in- 
telligence of the deplorable condition of some of the churches 
in Virginia and North Carolina, request the above named 
10 



146 DEBATE ON 

ministers to visit them 1 And did they not * go ye ' on the 
Bible plan, and, like the ancient Baptists, * single handed, 
without fandsf " 

Mr. Coffey asks the question if these missionaries did not 
go at their own expense and without funds. In answer to 
that, I refer to Benedict, page 707. 

" In 1755 the association taking into consideration the des- 
titute condition of many places in the interior settlements of 
this and the neighboring States, (then Provinces) recommend- 
ed to the churches to make contributions for the support of 
a missionary to itinerate in those parts.^ 

Mr. Benedict maks the statement that contributions were 
made up ; Coffey says they were not. In view of this, I re- 
peat that Coffey is a dishonest historian. But to proceed with 
Benedict. 

•' Mr. Hart was authorized and requested, provided a suf- 
iieient sum should be raised, to procure if possible a suitable 
person for this purpose. With this view he visited Pennsyl- 
vania and New Jersey in the following year, and prevailed 
with the Rev. John Gano to undertake the service, who at- 
tended the annual meeting and was cordially received. The 
association requested Mr. Gano to visit Yadkin settlement in 
North Carolina first, and afterwards to bestow his labors 
wherever providence should appear to direct.'^ 

Benedict, page 709 : " This association has now existed 
ninety-six years, and during this long period it has been uni- 
form in its principles and pursuits, having been under the 
management of men of intelligence and stability. Among 
its early doings it paid peculiar attention to the cause of mis- 
sions, ministerial education, and all benevolent institutions 
then patronized and promoted by evangelical ehristians. 



CHURCH IDE^-TITT. 147 

*' So deeply were they imbued with the spirit of missions 
that almost a hundred years since they sent more than a 
thousand miles for Rev. John Gano to become their mission- 
ary in destitute parts of their own State and of Xorth Caro- 
lina. He was appointed and supported in the same manner 
as missionaries are at the present time." 

This is Benedict; Coffey says they went without funds. 
But I will show you, before I close this discussion, that oii 
one occasion there was four hundred dollars raised at a prayer 
meeting", years before Mr. Hardy's people had an existence- 
something they never had in their life. They never had an 
organized prayer meeting. I heard one old brother say, " I 
wish they would hold prayer meetings as the old Baptists 
used to." Xow, I am aware that the old Baptists did that 
thing ; but, Mr. Hardy, you are not the old Baptists. J will 
show you where the old Baptists had organized prayer meet- 
ings, and the most glorious protracted meetings, when broth- 
er Hardy was united with us, before the separation. I will 
show you in the case of the Kehukee Association, an anti- 
mission body, where they had some of the most glorious pro- 
tracted meetings recorded in history. 

Brother Hardy has said that he did preach repentance. 
Then, suppose we join hands, drop this discussion and have 
a great reunion at Mount Carmel Church. Suppose we meet 
together as we did anciently, and pray to God to give us a 
revival, as we did when we were united. For I will show 
this people that the most glorious revivals we ever bad was 
while brother Hardy's people were united with ours. 

Mr. Hardy has something to say about sinners being called 
ap to be prayed for. I think I will silence him on that point. 
Mr. Hardy does not deny that he receives converts into bis 



1.48 DEBATE ON 

denomination, but they preach that the converting of sinners 
is the devil's work ; however, they don't object to receiving 
the devil's material whenever they can gefit. They say that 
these protracted meetings are moonshine and fox-fire. Well, 
in order to see fox-fire a man has to be in the dark, and I 
would recommend to these people to come out of the dark- 
ness, and they will not see so much fox-fire in glorious reviv- 
als. Fox-fire recedes when daylight appears, and if you will 
come out of the darkness of ignorance into the broad light of 
day, you will not see so much fox-fire in these revivals. O 
yes, brother Hardy, you may sneer at these glorious revivals, 
but at the same time you have no objection to receiving the 
fruits of them into your church. I will show you that those 
old Baptists had protracted meetings, before I close — that 
they had glorious revivals where people came up to be prayed 
for, as much so as we have at the present time. Wait until 
I get ready and I will show you that they occurred long be- 
fore Mr. Hardy's denomination had an existeace. I will show 
that in the Kehukee Association, that has now its prescrip- 
tions against these things, having departed from, the first 
union. 

The proposition in dispute here sa} s that they " do now 
maintain the doctrine and practices of the ancient Baptists.'' 
Ifow, if you do not hold protracted meetings you cannot sub- 
stantiate that claim, and so with the support of theological 
schools ; for I will show you the existence of these schools 
long before the Reformation. Mr. Hardy claims there was 
BO such thing until 1816. I promise to yet go back in the 
Bible and show protracted meetings and missionary opera- 
tions. 

Mr. Hardy also says, '' I believe m aaeiias, and never have 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 149 

denied it.-' Now, brother Hardy, you or I have made a mis- 
take since we commenced debating here. I have said, since 
I came here, that yoo called on your God at Zion Church to 
witness that you did not believe in means. Now, you say, 
you have never denied it. Which of us is wrong about this! 
There is certainly a mistake somewhere. If I am mistaken 
in any statement, I have said I would take it back. God 
knows I would do it. I would not mislead one of my own, 
or any other denomination, and if I should do it, it would be 
out of ignorance and not willfully. If I have made a mistake 
about this, I am willing to recede from my statement. And 
I want my brother to say nothing more about this or do as I 
do. I think the best thing is to let it pass. 

Then Mr. Hardy speaks about their "old name." You will 
remember that I quoted from Hitchcock to show that they 
assumed the name '' Old Baptists " in 1832, when the separa- 
tion took place in Virginia. I thought when Mr. Hardy was 
on this point that he was going to attempt to explain the ap- 
pellation, •' Old Baptists," as he did at Zion Hill. But he 
says the proposition does not say *' Old Baptists," but " Reg- 
ular Baptists." I tried to follow him to see how often he 
would use the expression, '♦ Old Baptists," and I caught it 
twenty-one times. I asked him before to tell me the ante- 
cedent of the pronoun " we." You may guess why he did 
not answer it. I will not say why he did not. I asked him 
also in reference to repentance, whether the words "repent" 
and " believe " as commanded by the Savior are in the active 
or passive voice. He failed to answer that. Why ? It seems 
to me it is a reasonable question. 

Well, I have not much more at present, but I will try to 
manufacture eno-.igh to ron a few im'nutes. I will speak of 



150 DEBATE ON 

Barchaid's History of all denominatioag. That writer passes 
by these Old School Baptists entirely. Now. I do not know 
where the residence of Burchard was, but I do know that 
there are places in the United States where the name Old 
School Baptist is unknown, only as it is found in church his- 
tories. I know of places where men have lived and died and 
never heard an A.ntimission Baptist preach — hundreds of 
men that never knew such a denomination was in existence. 
In the State of New York they have two or three churches ; 
in Ohio and Pennsylvania there are none j in the State of 
Maine they had four hundred and four members that seceded 
from the Eegular Baptist Church. It is as Gorrie says, in 
the Middle and Eastern States they do not prevail in any 
number, and I will corroborate that by other histories before 
I close. I will show you where the strong Baptist denomina- 
tion stood at that time. I will show you that in 1832, when 
the separation commenced in the State of Kentucky, that 
there were thirty-one thousand one hundred and forty-two 
Baptists in the State: in the Little Eiver Association, a few 
years after the separation,. there were two thousand one hun- 
dred and seventeen members, as they claim; I will show that 
they had not even a thousand in that association. I would 
like to have some one here to produce the minutes of the Lit- 
tle Eiver Association. If any one here has it, I would 
like to see it. I will exhibit the minutes of our association, 
they are furnished to me every year, and I say I would be 
glad to have exhibited the strength of the Little Eiver Asso- 
ciation. I would like to see their history. I would like to 
know something of the discussion they had about receiving 
our members. I am told you had a difficulty about that 
years ago, when I was a boy: I don't know about that, but I 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 151 

•do know about the Two-Seedism fuss they had, when four olr 
'five members were thrown out of their church over it, and 
died oat of the church. I know they never had any baptism 
except what they received from us, and I will prove it. I 
say they never had any baptism except what they received 
from the Eegular Baptist Chur<5h. 

Jfow, ladies and gentlemen, I am about throogii. One 
half day more, and I come to set up my negative proof, when 
I will proceed to cross the Eeformation and go on until I 
come up to the days of the Apostles. I will show Baptist 
succession in the dark ages, and missionary tracts that were 
scattered throughout the land, and missionaries that traveled 
-all over the country, and into the heathen nations : I will 
■show you in the Bible, missionary plans where they were 
sent into heathen nations, and I will show you from the same 
authority, protracted meetings. And if I prove all this, I 
think it ought to forever settle the question. 

Mr. Baker — From the audience, asked permission to make 
a, statement. Assented to. He said : I have been familiar 
with the Baptists in this <:ountry for fifty years, and I never 
knew of them receiving the baptism of the Missionary Bap- 
tists, after the split took place in 1832 until about 1845. 
There was a church that belonged to the Still Creek Associa- 
tion that did receive two or three members on their letters, 
who had been baptized by Allcock Gord, down below here, 
■and they took their letters of dismission from the church 
where they joined, and organized a new church. When they 
came forward to the association and asked for admittance, 
they were rejected. It caused a division in the association, 
part favoring the admission of the church and part opposing 
it, and that association went into dissolution. The associa- 



152 DEBATE ON 

tion was orgaDized again and one of the preachers who fa- 
vored receiving these members went down and baptized 
them. And if they have ever received the Missionary bap- 
tism except in the Still Creek Association, I never heard of 
it. Indeed, I know it has been all the time rejected. 

Mr. Wallace — That association was not constituted at that 
time. 

Mr. Baker — Still Creek Association was a part of the Clear 
Biver Association at that time. 

Mr. Wallace — One more remark. I have long suffered the 
vituperations of this antimission party, and I am prepared 
for anything from them. 1 have been anxious to satisfy my 
mind on this subject, and I have searched for history on it. 
I have written to different publishing houses for different 
works on the subject, but have been unable to find anything. 
I knew that was the point you would attack, that yoa had 
taken our baptism, and I have setup that you never had any 
but ours, and I say when you invalidate our baptism you in- 
validate your OWE. So far as the trouble about it is con- 
cerned I know nothing personally of it, for I was a boy at the 
time, but I did know of your Two-Seedism quarrel. 

And now, ladies and gentlemen, I thank yon for your at- 
tendance and hope you will all be in attendance to-morrow 
and give me your full attention. 

[After the benediction the a-'jidienoe was dismissed lo Ecee: ^o-dgottow 
morning.] 



ELDEE HARDY SAID : 

[Third Day — Morning Session.] 
[The services were opened with prayer, after which, by reqnest, the 
rules governing the discrsssion were read.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I may 
say in the beginning that I think it is no wonder that the 
people want the rules read, for I think it would be difl&cult 
for any person having heard the first part of this discussion 
to tell who was in the negative of the proposition and who in 
the affirmative; it seems to me Mr. Wallace has taken the 
affirmative without making any attempt to reply to my argu- 
ments. I certainly never heard of a proposition with two 
affirmatives without a negative. My understanding is that 
in all honorable controversies the person who assumes the 
negative should come up and meet the arguments of the af- 
firmative. Has Mr. Wallace done that? Has he met any 
arguments that I have made, or attempted to show or shown 
that they were not the truth? You will remember that 
the day before yesterday he said that he purposed taking up 
Coffey, and that he thought that it would take him about all 
day to speak of him. He made no attempt to reply to my 
opening speech, but devoted nearly the whole of his time in 
trying to prove that Coffey had misrepresented facts, and 
that Coffey was a dishonest historion. I refer to one instance 
in particular. The same that I referred to yesterday in my 
last speech. Mr. Wallace said that if he made any statement 
that was not the truth he would take it back, and after I had 



154 DEBATE ON 

show a him where he had misrepresented Coffey, and that 
there was no such statement in that book as he said there 
was, I think he ought to have retracted it. 

Mr. Wallace — What have you reference to? Name the 
page. 

Mr. Hardy — I have referred to page 126. You stated that 
on this page Coffey said that Jesus Christ manifested no 
anxiety for sinners. I asserted and assert now that there is 
no such language in this book at all. Mr. Wallace, in our 
discussion over in Livingston County, said the same thing, 
that Coffey said that Jesus Christ had no anxiety for sinners, 
but that he came to save the elect, and in that connection I 
find a statement in the Paducah News, published after that 
discussion, where there was given a short account of that 
discussion, in which the statement is attributed to me. I 
don't know who wrote that article, because whoever did it 
was ashamed to sign his name to it. 

I repeat that Coffey does not make any such statement ; 
nor did I. It is a false accusation in both instances. I have 
read this passage from Coffey before, but 1 desire to do it 
again, and ask this congregation to listen attentively. Be- 
ginning on 125, it reads as follows : " But the Regular Bap- 
tists, believing that Jesus Christ came into this world to save 
his people from their sins; that he, by his sufferings and 
death, canceled all their sins; that in his own appointed time 
and way he will call, regenerate and sanctify them ; in short, 
manifest himself to each and every one of them : and that it is 
impossible they can refuse the call ; did not manifest such 
anxiety from fear that sinners would be lost." It is very 
clear, I think, from this that it was not Jesus Christ that was 
referred to as not manifesting anxiety for sinners, but it was 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 155 

the Eegular Baptists. We are not afraid that sinners will 
be lost, because Jesus Christ came into the world to save 
them. 

I will proceed with mv argument now. When mv half 
hour expired yesterday evening I wa^ speaking of the first 
missionary work in the United States. I will now finish that 
portion. I will quote from the minutes of the Little Kiver 
Association of Missionary Baptists of 1869, page 4: "The 
first American Baptist Missionaries were sent out fifty-seven 
years ago.'' Any one can make the calculation for themselves, 
by deducting fifty-seven from sixty-nine, to find the year m 
which the first Missionary Baptist was sent out, and they 
will find it was in the year 1812. Mr. Wallace has tried to 
make this people believe that the Baptists have been a mis- 
sionary body as they are in modern times from the beginning 
down to the present time, or, in other words, from the setting 
iip of'the gospel down to the present time. ]S"ow, we have a 
statement here emphatically that the first missionary sent 
out by the Baptists was in the year 1812. When did the 
Baptists come to America? They came in the year 1638 and 
organized a church. When did the Baptists first organize 
their first association in America? They got strong enough 
to do that thing in the year 1707, and after that many other 
associations were organized, but the first missionary, accord- 
ing to their own testimony, was sent out in 1812. If the Bap- 
tists away back there had been in the habit of sending out 
missionaries according to the modern style, what is the rea- 
son they did not do it in America? Was it because they did 
not need them, or because there was not money enough? 
Now, you see here that after the first association was organ- 
ized it was over one hundred years before the Baptists sent 



156 DEBATE ON 

oat a missioiiary in America, and now it is for Mr. Wallace 
to state the reason why they did not send them sooner. 

Let me appeal to this congregation to-day and ask them 
where their dependence is. I doubt if there is any one here 
to-day but who desires to go to heaven. Xow, if you wish to 
go there, there certainly must be some means by which you 
will go. If we are permitted to enter into paradise, I want 
to know who we shall praise when we get to that glorious 
world. Let us hear what the Missionary Baptists say. 

Little Bethel Association, 1877. In the report on foreign 
missions, we find the following: " We owe to the missionary 
spirit our earthly civilization and our hope of heaven." What 
do they owe it to! Why, to the missionary spirit, they say, 
and not to God. Don't you see that the Lord Jesus Christ 
is left clear out of this system? Nowadays we have these 
missionary societies and tract societies j and Mr. Wallace 
tries to prove here that these things were in use among the 
Baptists anciently. O, he says, the Sunday School is one 
of the most wonderful things that ever existed. Why, it be- 
gan away back yonder in 1781, almost before there were any 
Baptists. I say that these are new things among the Bap- 
tists, but we will come to that more particularly after awhile. 
I say we do not owe our hope of heaven to the foreign mis- 
sionary spirit or anything of the kind, but we owe it to Jesus 
Christ. 

Brother Wallace said on yesterday that the Old Baptists 
never had an organized prayer meeting, but he failed to prove 
that assertion. Brethren, it is a very easy matter to make 
an assertion, but it is a totally different one to prove it. I 
would like to see Mr. Wallace produce his proof on that point 
here. 3 know that the Regular Baptists have had prayer 



OHUROH IDENTITY. 157 

meetings; for wbile he is probably acquainted with the few 
Baptists around here, it must be remembered that they are 
scattered all over the CJnited States, and they are in places 
where he has never been to see what the3f do. Then he says 
we can see a great deal of fox-fire, and remarks that we are 
in the dark, and that if we were not in the dark we could not 
see the fox-fire. As to that, I would only ask if a man can- 
not stand in the light and see fox-fire in the dark. Put ^x- 
fire in the light and it cannot be seen; but these people are 
in the dark, and consequently it is there that we see the fox- 
fire. 

Mr. Wallace — That is the best thing you have gotten off 
since you have been speaking, and I am glad to have been 
able to help yon to it. 

Mr. Hardy — I am informed that there is a regular piayer 
meeting in the Little River Association at this time. 

Mr. Wallace has labored here to prove that Coffey was 
wrong. I wonder if they have any historians ou eiiber side 
that have misrepresented anything. Now here io regard to 
the Kehukee Association, we find that D. B. Ray says that 
this Association was formed by churches gathered by the 
missionaries sent from the Philadelphia Association eighty 
years ago, prior to the Hard-shell separation in 1832; that 
missionaries were sent from the Philadelphia Association, 
and by their labors churches were organized, and were col- 
lected, and an Association formed. Now, let me tell yoii that 
the Philadelphia Baptists never sent a minister anywhere. 

Then he makes another assertion that I want to read. 
Ray's Baptist Succession, page 30: "The Philadelphia Asso- 
ciation, from the first, has engaged earnestly in efforts for 
t-he proper education of its ministers, and the spread of the 



158 DEBATE ON 

gospel in zhe world. Ehode Island College, now Brown Uni- 
versity, received its patronage and contributions from its 
origin, as the subsequent minutes show. It will be seen also, 
that from the first it has been an effective missionary body. 
Hundreds of churches have been gathered by the able and 
self-denying men sent out at its expense to regions where no 
religious privileges had before been enjoyed." 

What does Ray refer to here ? Why, he referred to the 
minutes of the Philadelphia Baptist Association, page 5. 
When we come to look at that place, we find that it is in the 
preface, and not a part of the history at all. Mr. Ray tries 
to show that this has been a missionary body from the very 
first. But did not I prove yesterday from Benedict that the 
first missionary society organized among this people was or- 
ganized in 1802, where he says that they would have sent out 
a missionary, but did not have a suitable man ? Notwith- 
standing this, Mr. Ray asserts that it has been a flourishing 
missionary body from the first. Now, this book, called the 
Baptist Succession, was published, I believe, in 1872; and I 
know, in the portion of country where I live, I never heard 
of a Missionary Baptist in my life claiming that tbey were 
the Old Baptists until this work came into circulation in this 
country. They got the first idea from this book ; and I assert 
that if Ray had not written and circulated his book, those 
Missionaries would never have found out or set up the claim 
that they were Old Baptists. 

Now I will refer you to Gardner, page 22, and this book, I 
understand, is a Missionary Baptist work. He comes out 
and acknowledges that they and the Pedobaptists agree. 
*' Of course, our denominational fellowship for others can 
estend only so far as we agree in faith and practice. With 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 159 

some of them, as the Cougregationalists, Methodists, and 
Presbyterians, we agree substantially in what is essential to 
salvation, however much we may differ as to baptism, com- 
munion, and church polity; and hence we can consistently 
co-operate with them as christians in the great work of con- 
version, and in whatever else we agree, though we cannot 
extend to them the toliens of church fellowship." 

What is the reason they cannot agree with them all the 
way through ? They assert that they agree with them sub- 
stantially of what is necessary to every sinner. I want to 
show you the inconsistency of the Missionary Baptists here. 
The Methodists are much more consistent, for over in my 
country they unite together — the Presbyterians, Methodists, 
and Missionary Baptists — and have held protracted meetings, 
and profess to convert sinners; they work in harmony up to 
that point, and then they divide their converts, and the Meth- 
odists invite these brethren that have assisted in the conver- 
sion of these sinners to their communion. But what do the 
Missionary brethren do? Why, they set their communion 
table, and say to the Methodists, " Brethren, we have set our 
table, and now you must stand off; you cannot come to our 
communiontable.'' Don't you see the inconsistency there? 
If they can come together in the work of converting sinners, 
why cannot they sit together at the communion table? 

Mosheim, second volume, page 286: '' The external forms 
of divine worshij) and ecclesiastical government, in the Ar- 
minian Church, are almost the same with those which are in 
use among rhe Presbyterians." Mosheim says it is all the 
same; and now, if the systems agree, if they agree substan- 
tially with Pedobaptists, let me ask, what is the reason for 
having two associations? When they agree so closely, what 



160 DEBATE ON 

is the reason they do not come together and form one de- 
nomination? Why don't the two denominations unite? Is 
it because they are too near kin to contract a lawful marriage? 

Oox's History, page 436: "Here what the Mississippi Bap- 
tists say, as also a portion of the report on education, made 
to the. Central Association, at its session with Mount Abben 
Church in 1852, namely: 

" 'Believing that education, in its fullest extent of mean- 
ing, is one means of carrying on the work of the world's sal- 
vation, and that, as a body of the professed followers of Jesus 
Christ, it is our duty, &c.' It will be seen that by all these 
innovations there has been a great departure from original 
principles in doctrine when they talk of the world's salvation 
by means of education, leaving Christ out of the question." 

I think no comment is necessary on that paragraph. 

Wayland, second volume, page 172: "We are all looking 
too much to our own wisdom, and forgetting that there is 
any Holy Ghost. We are making a difference between the 
times of Christ and his Apostles, and our own times." He 
was a Missionary Baptist historian, and this is the confes- 
sion he makes. 

See page 254 : " Dr. Wayland's eyes filled with tears, and 
his voice trembled as he said, ' O how near that man came to 
losing his soul!' It was this feeling that made his great 
heart burn with holy indignation as he saw so many of God's 
ministers engaged in everything besides saving souls." l!^ow, 
I want to know if this is the business of the Lord Jesus 
Christ. I want to know if the Lord Jesus Christ has sent us 
out to engage in the business of the salvation of souls, or 
does that belong to the Lord Jesus Christ himself? Why, if 
we follow the testimonv of the Bible wo cannot admit that 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 161 

that work belongs to us ; but we must admit that it belongs 
to the Lord Jesus Christ. And I take the position here now 
that every solitary gift necessary to the salvation of the sin- 
ner is the gift of God, and not in any degree the work of 
man. I say emphatically that everything necessary to the 
salvation of the sinner is the gift of God from first to last. 

Now, brethren, is this the old Baptist doctrine or not? I 
say this is what the old Baptists have ever preached and 
contended for. This is what the Old Baptists have been per- 
secuted for, and this is what they have preached from the 
days of Christ and the Apostles down to the present time j 
and I thank God that I am permitted to stand up here to-day 
before this intelligent congregation in vindication of the same 
truths that the Waldenses promulgated so long ago. I 
thank God that he has permitted me to stand here in defense 
of that truth. 

[The Moderators announced that the speaker's time was ux>.] 



EEV. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I come 
before you this morning, feeling better than ever. I heard 
once of some Irishmen who were raised in Cork, and who had 
heard tell of sheep being sheared, but they had never seen 
sheep nor seen one sheared j they came to America and the 
first thing they saw was a wbite hog 5 they put out and cap- 
tured it and began shearing it, and a man passing by asked 
11 



162 DEBATE ON 

them what they ^ere doing; they replied, ^' We are sheep 
shearing." The man asked, "Are you getting much wool?*' 
The reply was, " ZsTot much wool, but a lot of noise/' 
(Laughter.) 

Now, in this debate, I must say I am getting much noise^ 
but not much argument. Brother Hardy has said that I 
have not answered one of his arguments. Now, there has 
been a stenographer employed to report this discussion, and 
I believe it is to be published, and when it is the people can 
judge of that for themselves. Now, some of you who nodded 
so much for brother Hardy, just nod a little for me. I sim- 
ply ask the people to judge whether I have or not, answered 
your argument; I have no fears as to the judgment. 

Well, it seems I have not done with Coffey yet. He says 
he cannot find the statement in Coffey that I quoted. All I 
have to say is that I pity the comprehension of any man that 
cannot read it here ; I pity any man that cannot understand 
this language. Here is Mr. Coffey berating the Missionary 
Baptists, and then he says to the Eegular Baptist people that 
Jesus Christ came into the world to save his people from 
their sins— "that he" — who is he talking of? Christ, of 
course — "by his sufferings and death" — whose sufferings 
and death? Christ's — "that in his appointed time and way" 
—whose time? Why, Christ's time — "he will call, regene- 
rate and sanctify them "—who will? Christ will"— "in 
short, manifest himself "—that is, Christ will—" and that it 
is impossible they can refuse the call, did not manifest " — 
who did not manifest ? Why, Christ. Who else is under 
consideration ? I pity any man who cannot understand that. 
It is apparent to any man who knows anything about rhetoric 
or logic. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 163 

Mr. Hardy says yoii cannot understand who is in the af- 
firmative and who in the negative, and repeats that I have 
not answered his first argument. So far as that is concerned, 
he ought to be glad of that, but the report of this debate will 
show whether that is so, or not. 

Then he complains about some article in the Paducah 
Neivs^ and asserts that the writer of it was ashamed to put 
his name to it. Now, what was that done for? I tell this 
audience that these people have circulated it all over this 
country that I wrote that piece. I assert here solemnly that 
I did not write it. I, however, know the man who did write 
it, and he is a man that possesses more intelligence and 
knowledge of logic than Mr. Hardy could learn in ten years, 
even if he went to a theological school. I will pass on now. 

And, said brother Hardy, it was a hundred years after the 
first association was formed before missionary operations 
commenced. Now, is it necessary to reply to that? I have 
quoted and given the pages in Benedict's works where it is 
shown that the Philadelphia Association was constituted in 
1707, and I have shown from numerous, passages in Bene- 
dict that missionary operations were carried on in 1755, 
But as there are, perhaps, a number of people here to-day 
who were not present yesterday, I will refer to one passage 
in order to show the falsity of that statement. 

Benedict, page 707: "In the year 1755 the association, 
taking into consideration the destitute condition of many 
IDlaces in the interior settlements of this and the neighboring 
States (then Provinces), recommended to the churches to 
make contributions for the support of a missionary to itin- 
• erate in these parts. Mr. Hart was authorized and requested, 



164 DEBATE ON 

provided a sufficieut buin sbould be raised, to procure, if pos- 
sible, a suitable person for that purpose." 

Mark, this was in 1775, -while Mr. Hardy says there was no 
such thing until a hundred years after the formation of the 
first association in America, which would make it 1807; 
"while Beebe says there was no such thing until 1811. Mr. 
Hardy seems to be unable to retain a fact in his memory 
from one day to the nextj he certainly cannot retain it long 
enough to carry on a discussion. I don't charge him with 
willful perversion, for I believe he is honest; it must simply 
be a lack of memory. 

Benedict, page 709: "This association has now existed 
ninety-six years, and during this long i)eriod it has been uni- 
form in its principles and pursuits, having been under the 
managemetit of men of intelligence and stability. Among 
its early doings it paid special attention to the cause of mis- 
sions, ministerial education, and all benevolent institutions 
then patronized and promoted by evangelical christians. 

"So deeply were they imbued with the spirit of missions 
that almost a hundred years since they sent more than a 
thousand miles for Eev. John Gano to become their mis- 
sionary in destitute parts of their own State and ]S"orth Caro- 
lina. He was appointed and supported in the same manner 
as missionaries are at the present time." 

Now, I hope I will not have to recapitulate this again, in 
order to refute the reckless statements of my opponent. I 
know there are many men of discernment here who have 
come to listen impartially to the proof given on both sides, 
and I am content to rest that point here. 

Next, Mr. Hardy had something to say aboui Sunday • 
Schools. Now I know there are old Baptists here who have 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 165 

found and heard of Sunday Schools among them fifty years 
before Mr. Hardy was born. Have you ever had one, brother 
Watkins ? If they have not found Sunday Schools they have 
found prayer meetings. Xow, I am satisfied there are men 
here who remember the wail of brother Worlds a few years 
ago when he said, " I would to God that Old Baptists had 
prayer meetings as they used to have." Eight here is a min- 
ister that wished they did not have them, at 'New Hope a 
few years agoj I don't remember when it was that the asso- 
ciation was held at Xew Hope, the time before the last, but 
there are parties here that heard that same statement. I ask 
you now. When did you get up a prayer meeting? Was it 
before brother Worlds made that statement? 

Mr. Hardy — I don't know when he made that statement. 

Mr. Wallace — When did you get up a prayer meeting in 
the Little Eiver Association ? How long has it been in ex- 
istence? — two years? 

Mr. Hardy— Ten of them. 

Mr. Wallace — An organized prayer meeting? 

Mr. Hardy — Yes; by the church. 

Mr. Wallace — I see one of your members shaking his head. 
You have had prayer meetings, but as far as regularly or- 
ganized prayer meetings are concerned, to pray for the sal- 
vation of sinners, I don't think you ever had it. That is the 
statement I made that you never did have a regularly organ- 
ized prayer meeting, gotten up for that purpose. 

I asked Mr. Hardy to tell this people how many brethren 
he had in Europe. He has not answered. I will speak of 
that after awhile. Xot a word has been said by him about 
these questions. 

Well, he says I cannot cross the Reformation with my sys- 



166 DEBATE ON 

tern. I reckon he wants me to go a little faster than I want 
to go. Howeveij for his benefit, I will proceed to cross this 
morning. We will see who goes back of the Eeformation, 
whether brother Hardy's people or mine. Well, brother 
Hardy, tell me when did the Eeformation commence? I 
have no idea that Mr. Hardy knows; that is my notion of it, 
although I may be mistaken ; because it is not everybody 
who knows when the Eeformation did commence. The Ee- 
formation was commenced by Martin Luther in the year 1517. 
Can I take my system beyond that time 1 Mr. Hardy asserts 
that I cannot. I will leave this people to decide whether I 
do, or not. I promised this people before to-day that I 
would trace our system back into the Bible. Mr. Hardy 
complains that I do not look at the Bible, that I am much 
fonder of Coffey. We will see. 

Before I proceed, I want to say that I am a predestinarian; 
I believe in God's predestination. Indeed I am a better pre- 
destinarian than Mr. Hardy, for I go the whole hog, while he 
only goes half. 

Eay's Baptist Succession, page 38: "Again in the minutes 
of 1789 we have the following: 'After conferring upon the 
necessity and importance of raising a fund for the education 
of pious and promising young men for the ministry, we, the 
members present, do engage to promote subscrij^tions in our 
respective churches and congregations for said purpose, and 
to bring in the monies raised, with the subscription papers, 
to the next association, to be at their disposal.' " 

Eemember that was in the year 1789. 

On page 39 of the same book we find they had a college 
established under the patronage of Broad Mead Church, and 
that it went into operation in the year 1710. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 107 

!N'ow, on page 40 of the same book: '' In the year 1229 the 
Waldenses had already spread themselves throughout all 
Italy. They had ten schools in Yalcanonica alone, and they 
sent money from all parts of their abode in Lombardy for 
the maintenance and support of said schools." 

So, Mr. Hardy, if that is so, do not repudiate such schools; 
do not calumniate them. Here are a people that supported 
theological institutions in 1229, and who sent money from all 
parts of their country for the support of them. I^ow, does 
not every man who knows your prescriptive policy against 
such as this, know that these were not antimission Baptists 
that did this? . O, they say, but that is not all, and they ridi- 
cule us because we support the Bible Society and the Or- 
phans' Home. One of their ministers made light of it at 
their association meeting, when we made up a fund for these 
orphans — poor creatures with neither father, mother nor friend 
to take care of them. I told them yesterday that they would 
exclude members from their churches if they contributed 
to the support of such an institution. Aye, if one of their 
members should give a dollar to. this great Bible Society that 
does such a magnificent work for humanity, he is put out of 
church for the act. Some of them might give one dollar for 
the missionary work, but they are told they shall not do itj 
but there is nothing said if they spend their money to their 
own ruin and the demoralization of the youth of the country. 
When I atmck them on this they burn under it, and make 
no attempt at refuting it. And yet here we find the exist- 
ence and support of such institutions long before they ever 
had an existence. I will show this audience that these anti- 
missionaries never have practiced the principles of the an- 
cient Baptists. I have said that when I came to the Bible I 



168 DEBATE ON 

would show the existence of protracted meetings, missions 
and a financial agent; I will show you churches in those 
days that were engaged in the glorious work of sending the 
gospel to the heathens. 

I have crossed the Reformation, though I have skipped a 
good deal of history, but I promise to supply the connecting 
links in the chain when I begin my argument in assuming 
the burden of proof. 

i^ow, I will sum up shortly the argument of yesterday and 
the day before, for the benefit of those present who were not 
present before. 

I brought up the charges made on Mr. Hardy-s people by 
his own brother, Dr. Watson, to which there has been no at- 
tempt at an answer. Kext, I reviewed Coffey's history, and 
Elder Beebe's, and I showed that both of these had made 
statements that were untrue. I asserted that Beebe was 
one of their leading men and ablest writers. I charged a& 
false the statements of Coffey as to what we preached, and 
defied any one to say they had ever heard such doctrine 
preached. Finally one of these people got up and gave Dr. 
Chaplin, of Texas, as one. Now, Dr. Chaplin is a man that 
wears the title of D. D., which is a mark of literary distinc- 
tion, and consequently he is a man that is sound in the doc- 
trine of the Baptists, and he would not have preached it. I 
heard brother Spencer speak of it, and say that Dr. Chaplin 
denied it. , 

Mr. Spencer offered to state what Dr. Chaplin said on tke 
subject in his presence. 

Mr. Moderator Perkins objected to such a statement a& 
wholly unnecessary. 

Mr. Wallace resumed — I will just say to this audience that 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 169^ 

brother Spencer will indorse what I have said. I will at the 
first opportunity write a postal card to Dr. Chaplin in refer- 
ence to the matter, and his reply will settle the question as 
to which of these two men has made the correct statement. 
Nearly everybody over the country takes this paper, and I 
will have the Doctor's reply published. If Dr. Chaplin had 
been some greenhorn that did not know any better what our 
doctrine is, I might have believed it. I know that there are 
some men in our denomination who really do not know what 
our doctrine isj that is the case in every denomination, but 
the denomination is not responsible for them. 

Kow, I will go back a little. Mr. Hardy has said that it 
was a hundred years after the Philadelphia Association was 
constituted before missionism was commenced. I have spoken 
of that. If you will refer to Fuller's History, page 84, you 
will find that Princeton College in 1795 conferred the degree 
of D. D. on Andrew Fuller. Elder Beebe says he joined the 
church in 1801, and he says such a thing was not known 
among Baptists in the United States in 1805. Yale College 
also conferred the degree of D. D. on Andrew Fuller, six 
years before Beebe joined the church, and yet he tells his 
brethren there was nothing like that known among the peo- 
ple at that time. What does this people think of such a man 
who would mislead his brethren in order to cry down the 
Missionary Baptists? He had no other object. It could not 
have been ignorance on Beebe's part, because graduates went 
there to study when the split took place in Maryland, at 
Black Eock, and preached there. And Brown's University 
stands there to-day in successful operation that was consti- 
tuted in 1664, and consequently that was before Beebe joined 
the church. McWalter's Academy existed in 1755, and was- 



170 DEBATE ON 

In successful operation for twelve years, and yet Beebe makes 
these statements, and no attempt has been made to vindicate 
him. Still they say I won't answer anything. 



ELDEE HAEDY SAID: 



Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: It seems 
that brother Wallace or myself misunderstand the reading of 
this language in Coffey's History very much. 

He evidently wishes to make the impression on this people 
that I have made a false statement in regard to the mission 
system. Now, if it is false the Missionary Baptists made it, 
and not me. Did not I prove here on yesterday that the 
first missionary society that was ever formed, was formed 
in the year 1792? and Mr. Wallace has not disproved that 
statement. I produced three witnesses to testify to that ef- 
fect, and he says they are Missionary Baptists. Now, did 
not I prove from Benedict, the second volume, that the first 
missionary society was organized in the Philadelphia Bap- 
tist Association in 1802? and he says they would have sent 
out a missionary, but did not have a suitable man. This is 
what Benedict says 5 and if he has contradicted himself, it is 
not my fault. I also quoted from the Little Eiver Associa- 
tion of United Baptists, where they positively state that the 
first missionary that was sent out in America was in 1812. 
I am not responsible for their works. 

Then Mr. Wallace refers to Sunday Schools, and says that 
it is my business to prove that we were what the ancient 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 171 

Baptists were. When was, the first Sunday School! In 
1781, which is quite ancient; consequently he says we are 
not on the original ground, because we have no Sunday 
School. So far as the first Sunday School being organized 
in 1781, we do not deny that. The question is, Did the Bap- 
tists have these previous to that time? 1 say they did not; 
and if that is true, it shows that there was a departure from 
the original principles there. 

Then he says that I had remarked several times that he 
could not cross the Keformation, and he went back and found 
the existence of schools of the Waldenses, and then states 
that the Old Baptists were opposed to such schools. In 
short, he wishes to make the impression on this people that 
the Old Baptists were opposed to education, and that they 
were ignorant atid illiterate. I may remark here that it is a 
fact that a good deal of the education Mr. Wallace has he 
got from an Old Baptist ; and I expect that there are some 
men in the Old Baptist Church to-day that are able to teach 
him a good deal yet. We do not deny that the Waldenses 
had these schools, and I do not deny that he can go behind 
the Reformation and find fhese schools; but is that any part 
of the doctrine of the Baptists, or is it a part of the doctrine 
of anybody? If I have not made the statement before, I do 
it now, that neither brother Wallace, nor any other man, can 
■aet up the doctrine and practice of the Missionary Baptists 
and trace it beyond the Eeformation on the pages of history. 
I do not mean merely of schools, but I mean that they can- 
not set up their system as they believe and preach it to-day, 
that they cannot trace back their practice as they practice it 
in this portion of Kentucky. If they can do it, let them show 
it on the pages of history. I repeat, he cannot do it. 



172 DEBATE ON 

Mr. Wallace has been claiming since this discussion com- 
menced that his denomination excluded us. Xow, we will 
see about that during this my half hour's speech. 

Mr. Wallace — Mr. Hardy has made use of that expression 
again. I do not want to interrupt him, but I want to say 
that my understanding is that the Old Baptists claim that 
they excluded us. 

Mr. Hardy — I understand that you excluded us. 

Mr. Wallace— I wish to say that I never made any such 
statement here or anywhere else. I never have claimed that 
we excluded you, and I am not here for the purpose of set- 
ting that up. I make the statement that you seceded from 
us, and I will prove it before this discussion is ended. 

Mr. Hardy — Yery well. Xow, taking up my line of argu- 
ment I will refer you to Benedict, page 893: * 

" 1. The Campbellites, or Eefor^^iers.— Many churches 
were divided by this reformation. 

"2. The Commence^ient of the Missionary Age. — 
This caused another war, and the division of many churches 
and associations." 

Benedict, page 802: " Ked Ei\^r Association was formed 
from the Cumberland, in 1806; it took its name from a river 
which rises in Kentucky, and empties into the Cumberland a 
little below Clarksville. The churches to the east and south- 
east of this river, and the Dividing Eidge between it and the 
Cumberland, remained in the old body; those on the other 
side united in the new interest. 

'' The community embraced some of the oldest churches in 
what was then called West Tennessee; and so grfeat was its 
enlargement that when my tables were made up for 1812 
it stood a fraction highest on the list, as to numerical 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 173 

strength, of any association in the whole State. But its 
boundaries and strength are so greatly reduced that it now 
numbers but a fraction over three hundred. It is located in 
the' county of Montgomery, and perhaps some others in this 
State. One or more of its churches are in Kentucky. 

" The Bethel Association, which stands at the head of the 
whole corps of the institutions of the kind in Kentucky save 
-one, went out from the Eed Kiver some twenty years since; 
it will be noticed under the head of that State." 

Here is the positive statement of Benedict that the Bethel 
Association went out from the Eed River Association, not 
that the Eed Eiver Association went out from the Bethel. Is 
not that clear and explicit language ? He says distinctly that 
the Bethel Association went out from the Eed Eiver; and 
this division took i^lace in 1824, according to the statement 
of Mr. Benedict, and the Betliel Association was organized 
in that year. 

Benedict, page 830: "Bethel Association bears date from 
1824. This is the largest body of the kind in the State, ex- 
<}ept from Elkhorn. This is a strong branch of the Eed Eiver 
-fi*aternity ; it was formed by a division of it at the time above 
named. This fact I learn from Allen's Eegister for 1833," &c. 

Benedict, page 829: "Little Eiver Association was formed 
in 1813; it was taken from the old Eed Eiver community, 
which is partly in Tennessee, under the head of which State 
1 have placed it. 

" Elders Dudley Williams, D. Brown, J. F. Woods and 
Nathan Eoss were the princiijal preachers in the formation of 
this then new interest. It comprised twenty-seven churches, 
twelve ordained preachers, and one thousand eight hundred 
and nine members. It was located in the west of Kentucky 



174 DEBATE ON 

and Tennessee, and in the southern part of the Territories of 
Illinois and Missouri. The Highland, Kentucky and Muddy 
Eiver Associations in Illinois, and some others, have been 
constituted from it. 

" This association split in 1833." 

Now see Coffey, page 40 j and I will say that I know that 
the statement contained here is true, because I saw the asso- 
ciation book, and got a copy of the proceedings of the asso- 
ciation j and my brother Watkins, who is here, says that he 
also saw the minutes, and they were like it is here. " In 
1833; at which time the association met at Mt. Pleasant 
meeting house, Trigg County, Kentucky, and was organized 
by choosing Elder William Buckley Moderator, and John 
Draper Clerk. The original body (we mean by this those who 
held the Constitution and Articles of Faith sacred, and 
wished no innovation either in faith or practice), knowing 
that there were two parties among them, first made the fol- 
lowing motion, viz. : * I motion that all who cannot fellowshi]> 
the doctrine of general atonement and universal operation of 
the Spirit, manifest it by holding up their hands.^ On this 
vote there was a majority declared they did not fellowship 
the above doctrines, and a large minority voted that they did. 
Then a second motion was i^resented, viz.: ' I motion that all 
those that cannot retain in fellowship those that preach and 
believe the doctrine of general atonement and universal ope- 
ration of the Spirit, manifest it by rising to their feet and 
collecting themselves together, and organize themselves as 
the Little River Association, to the exclusion of those that 
believe the above doctrines contrary to the Constitution.' '^ 
I repeat that this is the statement of the association book it- 
self. 



CHTJECH IDENTITY. 175 

Mr. Eose said that lie had the minutes referred to at his 
house, and would produce them if Mr. Wallace desired them. 

Mr. Wallace — Allow me to make one remark. In the first 
place, there is no use of my bringing up that question again. 
I have proved that this is not true, and you will remember 
when I called on them yesterday to let me see the minutes 
that they objected to it. I don't care to raise that question 
again. I have proved emphatically that this is not the case, 

Mr. Hardy resumed — I would beg the gentleman not to 
interrupt me again, as it confuses me, and breaks my line of 
thought. 

I will now refer to Coffey, page 59: "As touching the third 
and fourth exceptions, as charged in the declaration of drop- 
ping the correspondence with the Little River Association, 
and adopting one with the Original Little Eiver Association, 
neither dropped nor adopted a correspondence at the last sit- 
ting, as may be seen from her minutes, that she continued 
her correspondence as formerly with the Original Little Eiver 
Association, finding her occupying her old landmarks that 
she was constituted upon, and the seceding party occupying 
a different one, which this association do not feel disposed to 
fellowship." We find the Highland and Muddy Eiver Asso- 
ciations using correspondence previous to the division of the 
Little Eiver Association, and when the division took place 
there had been no division in.either of these associations, and 
they continued to correspond with the Old Baptists. ISTow, 
why did they do it if we were a split up party? Here came 
up a query in the Bethel Association, and brother Coffey says 
that they neither dropped out nor adopted a correspondence, 
but continued in the same body that they had corresponded 
with before. 



;176 DEBATE ON 

I refer you now to Benedict, page 860: ''Salem Associa- 
tion Tv^as formed by a seceding party from the old one last 
named, in 1833, on account of her noneffort principles." 
Now, here is another positive declaration of Benedict's that 
they seceded from the old one last named. 

Benedict, page 828: " Highland Association was formed in 
1819 J this is a body of some age, but in a very feeble condi- 
tion j relative to its history I have no information, except 
that it came out of the old Little Eiver community. This is 
one of the seceding parties on the missionary question, which 
are somewhat common in this region. It is very small, and 
in a declining state; the counties of Henderson, Union and 
Hopkins embrace most of its churches. Little Bethel Asso- 
ciation bears date from 1835." Here we see that Bethel was 
formed from the Highland Association, an4 T will read what 
Benedict says about it: '^ Little Bethel Association bears 
date from 1835; it was formed by a seceding party from the 
one last named, in consequence of the intolerant measures of 
the mother body against all benevolent efforts." What does 
Mr. Benedict admit here? Does not he say positively that 
they seceded from the mother body? I told you that brother 
Wallace could not prove that they are older than their 
" mammy." 

After this Highland Association had been organized for 
sixteen years, the division took place, but the Highland As- 
sociation went right straight along, and the Little Bethel 
Association was formed from it; and we find by referring to 
the minutes of the Highland Association and Little Bethel 
Association that the Highland Association is sixteen years 
older than the Little Bethel. Mr. Wallace says that the latter 
as the older. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 177 

Benedict, page 796: ''Highwasee Association No. 2, which 
was organized in 1836; and it is on the same ground, and is 
-composed for the most part of men who had belonged to the 
mother body." What does Mr. Benedict mean when he uses 
the expression, '•' mother body?" He says that they belonged 
" to the mother body," and I am clearly of the opinion that 
he meant exactly what he said. 

Benedict, page 854: " Franklin Association was formed in 
October, 1841, with seven churches and eight ordained minis- 
ters, whose names were," &c. " This new interest came out 
from the Bethel Association, on account of her opposition to 
benevolent operations. The reasons for this secession from 
the mother body are thus expressed," &:c. Is not that also 
<;onclusive proof that they seceded from the mother body? 
iiTow, my brethren, remember that this is the testimony of a 
Missionary Baptist himself, and not of an Old Baptist, and 
I would like to see Mr. Wallace come up here and say they 
are untrue. 

Coffey, page 97. Here is the testimony of a living witness 
who was present at the time of the division referred to. ''I 
know for myself, being personally present at the separation, 
that the United Baptists are the split off", and stand as the 
excluded party." This is the evidence of a man who knew 
the names of all the Missionary Baptists who split off' and 
stand as the excluded party. Does it look reasonable that a 
man would come up here, before all the witnesses were dead 
that were present at the time the Missionary Baptists were 
born, and claim that they were older than their mother? 2^ot 
only does this witness testify to these facts, but there are 
plenty of other witnesses that will prove the same thing. 
1L> 



178 DEBATE ON 

There was a Campbellite minister that was present at the 
last discussion, who, if he were here, I could produce as a 
witness, and prove who the Old Baptists were. He said it 
had been always understood that we were the old Baptists^ 
and that it was something new when it was first disputed. 
Does not everybody know that away back there they always 
called us the Old Baptists, said that we were " old fogies,'^ 
and that we were a hundred years behind the times? And 
when we refer back a hundred years or so, we find that the 
old Baptists stood on the very principles we stand on to-day. 
He acknowledges that himself, and says that the Old Bap- 
tists have not disclaimed the general doctrine of the Baptists^ 
nor changed, nor made any departure. Xow, if their own 
historian admits this, I hardly think that the Missionary 
Baptists can deny it; for certainly Belcher, who lived long 
ago, had better chances of knowing about these things than 
they have to-day. 

Xow, will Mr. Wallace say that I have not proved that his 
people went out from us? I told you yesterday in regard to 
these Separate Baptists, and now we see away back there in 
1740 that there rose up a new denomination, which came 
from the Presbyterians, and who were called, in th« first 
place, "New Lights," and then " Separate Baptists." And 
we find afterwards that there was a union took place in 1787; 
and when these people united with us the Eegular Baptists 
had objection to it, because they held the principles of Ar- 
minianism, and, indeed, they came up squarely and admitted 
they did, but they asserted that they were good pious men 
and so on. The Separate Baptists did not accuse the Eegular 
Baptists of having Arminianism in their ranks, but the Reg- 
ular Baptists accused the Separates of having Arminianism 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 179 

in their ranks, but tliey said they were good pions men; and 
let me tell you, since we opened our doors to receive, these 
people, to receive people with Arminianism in their ranks, we 
have never been united, because one party believed in general 
atonement and the general application of the Spirit, and the 
other party believed in special atonement and special appli- 
cation of the Spirit. 

Brother Wallace has had a great deal to say about the arti- 
cles of fiiith, but he has admitted that the articles of faith 
set forth the doctrine and sentiments that the Baptists be- 
lieve. Well, if these articles of faith set forth the doctrine 
and sentiments that the Baptists believed in those times, do 
they not set forth the doctrine and sentiments that the Mis- 
sionary Baptists believe to-day? Xow, I have got the arti- 
cles of faith of the Missionary Baptists, and I purpose to 
read them before this discussion is over. 

As I have a little more time, I will read the articles of faith 
of the Eed Eiver Association of 1819: 

" 1. We believe in one only true and living God, the Father, 
the Word, and Holy Ghost. 

" 2. We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New 
Testaments are the word of God, and the only rule of faith 
and practice. 

" 3. We believe in the doctrine of original sin. 

"4. We believe in the doctrine of election, and that God 
chose his people in Christ before the foundation of the world. 

" 5. We believe in man's impotency to recover himself from 
the fallen state he is in by nature of his own free will and 
ability. 

" 6. We believe that sinners are justified in the sight of 
God only by the imputed righteousness of Christ. 



180 DEBATE ON 

" 7. We believe that God's elect shall be called, coDveited, 
regenerated aud sanctified by the Holy Spirit. 

" 8. We believe that the saints shall persevere in grace, 
and never fall finally away. 

" 9. We believe that Baptism and the Lord's Supper are 
ordinances of Jesus Christ, and that true believers are the 
subjects; and we believe that the true mode of baptism is by 
immersion. 

" 10. We believe in the resurrection of the dead and a gen- 
eral judgment. 

*' 11. We believe that the punishment of the wicked and 
the joys of the righteous will be eternal. 

" 12. We believe that no ministers have a right to the ad- 
ministration of the ordinances only such as are regularly 
baptized, called, and come under the imposition of hands by 
the presbytery," &c. 

These are the articles of faith of the Eed Ei^er Associa- 
tion of 1819. It represents the sentiments and doctrine of 
the Baptists at that time, l^ow, if the Baptists ever believed 
what the Missionary Baptists now believe, what are they do- 
ing with the articles of faith they have now? The people of 
this portion of the country know that the Missionary Bap- 
tists do not preach the articles of faith that lie before me. 
They know that they do not preach that God chose" his peo- 
ple in Christ before the foundation of the world. They know 
that they do not preach that the elect shall be called, regene- 
rated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit of God. If they be- 
lieve that, why don't they unite with us? What is the neces- 
sity of our being divided if such is the case? Everybody 
within the sound of my voice knows that the Eegular Bap- 
tists i)reach these very sentiments and doctrine to-day j and 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 181 

if the Baptists preached the same thing back in those days 
previous to the division, when we were all united on these 
articles of faith, tell me what was the necessity of any divi- 
sion. You all know that they preached contrary to the arti- 
cles of faith set forth here, else there would never have been 
a division among them. And here came in this trouble about 
tract societies and Sunday 'Schools, and other things that 
were not contained here; and consequently we could not get 
along togethej", and we divided. 



EEY. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I still 
keep getting better. The time will come after dinner when I 
will unfurl my flag and throw it to the breeze, and before this 
discussion closes it will have inscribed upon it, "Victory!^' 

Ladies and gentlemen, give me your attention for a short 
time, while I repeat the questions I put to brother Hardy on 
Monday morning, as there are some here who were not pres- 
ent when T first propounded them. I told him to get all his 
theological talent together and bring it to bear on these ques- 
tions, and I gave him two days and a half in which to answer 
them. He has not answered one of them, nor has he made 
any attempt to do so. Xo, he could not collect enough theo- 
logical talent to answer them. Xow, it seems to me if I was 
debating with a man, and he submitted a series of questions 
for me to answer, I would do it, or acknowledge that I could 
not answer them. Here are my questions: 



182 DEBATE ON 

First. Where did you have a separate denomination prior 
to the year 1832? 

Second. How many Baptists were there in the United 
States when the separation commenced! 

Third. How many, in 1840, when the separation ended ? 
The separation commenced in Virginia in 1832, and ended in 
Illinois in 1840. He says he excluded us from his church, 
and I asked him, * • 

Fourth. How many did you exclude from the church? 

Fifth. How many of your denomination have you in 
Europe? 

Sixth. Who first brought the gospel to America? 

Seventh. What makes the difference between the people of 
America and the heathen nations? 

Eighth. Did you ever have a missionary on any plan what- 
ever? If so, in what church and what association? I have 
spoken of the Fulkerson missionary operation, and how he 
was sent to Kansas to organize a church, and his expenses, 
fifty dollars, paid. You say missionism accomplishes noth- 
ing 5 why did you expend fifty dollars for nothing? 

Ninth. Had you ever a theological school, seminary, Bible 
or tract society, organized prayer meeting, or protracted 
meeting? 

Tenth. Did you ever have a general association? 

Eleventh. Were we the church of Christ when we were 
united? 

Twelfth. Are the words "repent" and ''believe," as com- 
manded by Jesus Christ, in the active or passive voice? 

Thirteenth. What is condemnation? Is it the decree of 
God to finally condemn? I will say here, that the great dif- 
ference between us is on this point. While they preach dam- 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 183 

nation by the unalterable decree of God, we preach damna- 
tion by works. 

Fourteenth. What is the cause of a sinner's damnation? 
Is it because God is unwilling to save the sinners? Mr. 
Hardy will not answer that question, because it is diametri- 
cally opposed to his doctrine. 

Fifteenth. Was there a portion of the human family repro- 
bated from eternity? 

These are all the questions submitted to him on Monday 
morning, and the time in which he had to answer them hav- 
ing expired, I will, after the recess, proceed to answer them 
myself, and I will leave him so far behind that he will be no- 
where. You saw how Mr. Hardy and his brethren stood 
around with long faces discussing these questions, and I 
understand there was an agreement made that he should not 
attempt it. I will reach back, and show him whether there 
were no missionary operations back of the Eeformation; I 
will reach Bible testimony and show it. I went back and 
showed the existence of theological schools, and he now 
comes up and says, O, common schools; of course you can 
show them! Everybody knows that these people heap vitu- 
perations on theological schools, and on those who give 
money to support them. Do people send money to support 
common schools? Every man with any comprehension, and 
with his reason enthroned, knows that these were not com- 
mon schools, nor for common education. Mr. Hardy and his 
people say that when James said, "If any man lack wisdom 
let him ask of God,'' that that is education. I have heard a 
man preach, who said when he began, " My mind is as blank 
a,s a piece of paper." What did he mean by that? Why, 
" If God does not fill it I cannot say anything." Well, I 



184 DEBATE ON 

thought as he proceeded that God did not understand good 
language. I am utterly unable to understand how a man 
can make such a remark that man made. Paul studied, he 
said, and God's divine Spirit assisted him in the study of the 
word; consequently he was able to bring it out as God in- 
tends it shall be done. And these people heap their vitu- 
perations on these institutions for the instruction of youth in 
God's holy word, and say, O, they were common schools j 
but they know very well that these were not common schools. 

Then Mr. Hardy takes .up this Little Eiver Association 
business, and tries to prove me a story-teller about that. I 
said what I wanted to prove on them and did not want to 
take up any more time with it. Brother Eose says now he 
has that minute. I would like to ask him if it is the minute 
of the meeting at the time of tbe split. 

Mr. Rose — It is the minute having reference to the divi- 
sion. 

Mr. Wallace— ^I have one here furnished by my friend, 
Thomas Harrison, and here I have a statistical table giving 
the number of associations last year. It shows you had four 
hundred in the entire association. Now, if your minute is 
according to this, it has got a table showing the number at 
that time. 

Mr. Eose — I cannot say whether it is or not. 

Mr. Wallace — You could look and see. 

Now, Little Eiver Association split, as I said before, in 
1833, and here is what Benedict says about it. Benedict, 
page 829 : 

'' A communication from Eev. Joel Grace, 1846. This in- 
dustrious correspondent has sent me the minutes of this body 
for a number of years past, and has given me the details of 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 185 

the troubles which Little Eiver Xo. 2 [which is Mr. Hardy's 
order] has caused it, more fully than my limits will permit 
me to insert. It appears to be a strong and vigorous com- 
munity, which has stood its ground against severe opposition 
from the anti party." 

Then Benedict, under the head of " Little Eiver Associa- 
tion," says: 

" This association split in 1833 on the missionary question, 
and a new and small interest claiming the name and consti- 
tution of the original body was formed from it." 

Benedict calls them a new and small interest. The minutes 
show at the present time that our body is four thousand five 
hundred and twenty -nine strong, and it is the master asso- 
ciation in the State of Kentucky, and has been for years. It 
was the master association at the time of the division, and I 
assert that the minority did split off, and not the majority, as 
Mr. Hardy has tried to prove by Coffey, whom I have proved 
is a dishonest historian. And I will hazard the assertion 
that Mr. Hardy never had a thousand in his association in 
his life. I assert that at the split, the Little Eiver Association 
had two thousand one hundred and seventeen, and I repeat 
that the other never had a thousand, and I defy them to 
prove to the contrary. Xow, I think that ought to settle this 
question. I dropped it yesterday, and if Mr. Hardy had let 
it alone I would not have referred to it again. 

Now, gentlemen, I made this remark on Monday morning^ 
and I stand by it to-day. If I have to come here to gain a 
victory, or to present what I believe to be the truth to this 
people, and have to do it on nothing but error, God knows I 
would quit this discussion. I have too honest a heart for 
that. I never came here with that puri^ose, and if I make a 



186 DEBATE OX 

misrepresentation at any time here, it will be an error of the 
head and not of the heart. 

Mr. Hardy then quotes what Benedict has to say about 
secession. I admit that is true. I know that in some of 
their associations they did have a majority, and that in some 
of their associations they did force us out, and I will show 
that in Benedict's works. I am not here to deny that there 
was not one of your associations that had a majority, because 
I know better than that. I know some of your associations 
did exclude us. But on the other hand, I will show you em- 
phatically numbers of churches that never, had any trouble 
in them at all, and that were never anything but Missionary 
Baptists, and they stand united to-day with us. And while 
all of brother Hardy's party was united with us, and at the 
time of the trouble, as I told you yesterday, one of their 
charges against us was that we were in alliance with the 
Abolitionists of the Xorth, and that all we wanted was to 
get the reins of the Government in our hands. IN'ow, you all 
know there were more Baptists up Xorth in 1832. How many 
people were in Jackson's Purchase at that time? I know 
brother Bolton and m^ father rode ten miles to a log raising, 
and Jackson's Purchase had but few people in 1832. Does 
not everybody know that throughout the States where there 
were separations in 1832 the country was hardly settled, and 
it was in the Southern States that the trouble came up, where 
there were but few historians? I will show you that where 
the great body of Baptists were there never was any trouble,- 
and there are a great many men who never heard of the an- 
timission Baptists. 1 will show you Separate Baptists that 
were thousands stronger than these Old Baptists, as they 
are called, ever were in their lives. 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 187 

Then, Mr. Hardy says I have a great deal to say about arti- 
cles of faith. 'Now, I appeal to this audience to say which of us 
it is that has had so much to say about that. Has it been 
I or Mr. Hardy that has been harping on articles of faith? 
Is not this audience composed of ladies and gentlemen of 
discernment? Does Mr. Hardy think you have been idling 
about here and not listening to the discussion, and does he 
think to impose on you? Have not I submitted the question 
to him and challenged him to answer whether his order made 
articles of faith a test of fellowship? And he has charged 
us with having changed our articles of faith. I^Tow, I pro- 
pose to show that, on the contrary, he has changed his. And 
right here let me ask this question: When a man or a de- 
nomination finds he or it is wrong, is it not the part of hon- 
esty to change to the right? When a man makes a state- 
ment that is untrue, should he not retract it? A man who 
will not change when he knows he is wrong is either a 
bigoted fool or a knave. Change is the law of nature. 
And if we as a denomination have changed some things 
in our articles of faith that we believed were wrong, were 
we not right and honest in so doing? Why, our Meth- 
odist brethren have changed their discipline time and again, 
and yet will you say that the Methodist Church of to-day is 
not the same Methodist Church it was many years ago? 
Don't you know, brother Hardy, that your church has 
changed its discipline time and again, and yet are you not 
the same church as of old? And will it be maintained that 
because the Baptists have changed some of their articles of 
faith, they are not now Baptists? A man who honestly be- 
lieves he is wrong, will surely change, and I will obligate 
myself here today that if brother Hardy can convince me 



188 DEBATE ON 

that he is right, and that he teaches the true doctrine, I will 
not stand still for wife or children or family associations, but 
will go right over to his side. I do not say I may not do 
wrong; it is human to err, and he who maintains that he 
can do no wrong must have his reason disenthroned. 

Now, just a few words on the subject of election. I regret 
to have to make the charge that Mr. Hardy has misrepre- 
sented me here, when he said our people abused the doctrine 
of election and made sport of it. But he did so. Our people 
know better than to do anything of the kind. There is no 
people that believes more in the doctrine of election by grace 
than we do. He has tried to leave the impression on the 
minds of this people that we preached salvation by works, 
and I have asked him to avow that, for under the rules I am 
not allowed to charge it on him until he avows it, and he will 
not do it. Notwithstanding he has endeavored to make that 
impression. Now, the great difference between them and us 
is that we preach salvation by grace and damnation by 
works, while they preach salvation by grace and damnation 
by the decrees of God. Now, the Two-Seed doctrine is that 
God made his people and the devil made the rest, and that 
God will in the end get his people and the devil will get his. 
This arrangement is made by mutual consent, I presume, 
between God and the devil. Mr. Hardy's doctrine, however, 
is that God made all the people, and that he sent his Son to 
die for a few. They maintain that Christ died to save the 
few, and let the devil have all the rest. But I learn from 
the Bible that God is no respecter of persons, and I suppose, 
according to Mr. Hardy, he would give Christ to the devil 
as well as the idiots. It was certainly a generous arrange- 
ment of God's, by which he took for himself the very few^ 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 189 

and handed the balance over to the devil. These were not 
known, it would seem, in the covenant of redemption, and 
God gave them no chance in the start. They are not sub- 
jects of gospel address, it is said, and cannot hear the gos- 
pel. This is their preaching, and everybody here knows it is 
their doctrine. And believing this, they heap their vitupera- 
tions on us because of our missionary work. They say we 
want to convert the world faster than God wishes it, and 
•consequently they cast their calumniations, vituperations and 
vilifications upon us. Why, they can hardly preach a ser- 
mon without attacking the Missionary Baptists. 

li^ow, ladies and gentlemen, I am through, and after din- 
ner I will take up and discuss these questions, and I will 
stick to history until to-morrow at noon, when I will come to 
the Bible, and show all I have asserted. 

[Afternoon Session.] 

I WISH to say to this congregation (having said before that 
if I made any statement where I was wrong I would gladly 
take it back), that upon a reconsideration and close inspec- 
tion of this extract 1 made from Coffey, I am satisfied that 
the author did not mean the construction that I put upon it. 
The mistake on my part occurred through the manner of 
punctuating the sentence. On closer inspection I find that 
it means that the regular Baptists had no anxiety for the sal- 
vation of the sinner. I acknowledge my error, and all I have 
to ask is, that when my opponent commits a mistake that 
he will as readilv avow it. 



ELDER HAEDY SAID: 

GE^'TLE3IEN Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am 
again before you to renew the discussion. I would just re- 
mark, in the first place, in reference to the questions pro- 
pounded to me by Mr. Wallace at the beginning of this dis- 
cussion, that I do not think in such a debate as this I am re- 
quired to answer such questions in order to prove my propo- 
sition. I do not understand that it is any part of my duty 
to answer any of these questions. So far as the questions 
themselves are concerned, I can readily answer them; but I 
do not think that I ought to take up time from the regular 
line of my argument to do so. 

Mr. Wallace has made the charge that there was an agree- 
ment between some of my brethren and myself that I should 
not answer his questions. Xow, before God, if there was 
ever any such an agreement I never heard of it. 

He then claims that he has found the existence of schools 
l^revious to the Eeformation. So far as this is concerned I 
propose to beat him on that point. 

Eeferring to Orchard, page 65, we find the following: 

^' The first, and the most fatal of all events to the primi- 
tive religion, was the setting up of a christian academy at 
Alexandria. Christians had been reproached with illiteracy, 
and this seemed a plausible method to get rid of the scandah" 

The statement here made is, that it was the most fatal of 
all events to primitive religion. Xow, it seems that this 
school that was organized back in those days proved ta be 



CHUKCH IDETsTITY. 191 

fatal to the religion of Jesus Christ. I again remark that I 
never have understood that the Eegular Baptists were op- 
posed to schools, but if I understand the Eegular Baptists 
correctly on that subject they did not see proper to educate 
their ministers to preach to the uneducated people. So far 
as I am concerned I would to God that the people were edu- 
cated. 

Wayland, second volume, page 280: " He- prepared, in 
1861, a tract entitled ' How to be Saved,' which was pub- 
lished by the American Tract Society, Boston, and was wide- 
ly circulated. A year or two later, an honored minister, re- 
siding at the West, wrote to him, ' I w*as lately at B., 111., on 
a Sabbath, when a man and his wife were baptized, and 
united with the Baptist Church. I learned that they owned 
a farm out upon one of the prairies, and attended no place of 
worship, feeling no interist in religion. Our excellent sister 
F. gave the woman a copy of your tract, ' How to be Saved,' 
and it was blessed of God to the conversion of herself and 
her husband. I have heard of many similar cases.' " 

Xow, tell me if the Baptists of old had such tracts as these 
and circulated them. Does history show anywhere that these 
tracts were the means of salvation of sinners? Is such con- 
version as this salvation by Christ? We are told here that 
the proclamation of the gospel is the means of the salvation 
of sinners. It is stated here that these people had not at- 
tended any religious meetings, they had done nothing, and 
it is asserted that this little tract alone was the means of 
their conversion. I have got another little tract here j it is 
not as big as the other, but it has perhaps done as much as 
the other has done. It is said in this tract that they have 



192 DEBATE ON 



BO doubt but that the world will be evangelized. Of that I 
must say that I am doubtful after reading the Bible. ( 

Wayland, page 288: " I fear that many enter the ministry t 
who have little idea that the great object is to rescue souls pi 
from hell by leading them to Christ.'' 

Here it is said that the mission of the minister is to save 
souls from hell. Is that our mission in the world? Was 
that the mission of the Apostles? Was that what Christ 
came into the world to do! The Bible says that Christ came 
into the world to save people from their sins, and I tell you 
that that is the mission we have to perform. It does seem 
to me that the people of this day have forgotten the Bible 
spirit. It seems to me that the people have forgotten what 
Christ came into the world to do. Jesus said, '' I laid down 
my life for the sheep." Does brother Wallace agree with 
that, that Christ laid down his life for the sheep? ^N'o, Mr. 
Wallace says that Christ laid down his life for the goats, al- 
though so far he has not been able to prove it. When you 
come to talk about the salvation of sinners the Bible tells 
you that that is the work of Christ. Here is the word: " I 
will take away from the sinner his stony heart, and I will give 
him a heart of flesh." 

Wayland, second volume, page 325: "The same is true 
among missionaries. In this country and in India the whole 
effort is to dress up Jesus Christ so that we may not be 
ashamed of him when we meet him in respectable society." 

Xow, I ask brother Wallace if it is the mission of his peo- 
ple in the world to dress up Jesus Christ in order that they 
may not be ashamed of him when they go into respectable 
society. 

In Mosheim, second volume, page 280, we fiud the articles 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 193 

of faith of the Arminians, and I will here quote them : " That 
'God, from all eternity, determined to bestow salvation on 
those who, as he foresaw, persevere to the end in their faith 
in Christ Jesiis, and to inflict everlasting punishments on 
those who should continue in their unbelief, and resist, to the 
end of life, his divine succor: 

'' That Jesus Christ, by his death and sufferings, made an 
atonement for the sins of mankind in general, and of every 
individual in particular^ that, however, none but those who 
believe in him can be partakers of that divine benefit. 

'' That true faith cannot proceed from the exercise of our 
natural faculties and powers, or from the force and operation 
of free will, since man, in consequence of his natural corrup- 
tion, is incapable either of thinking or doing any good thing; 
and that therefore it is necessary to his conversion and sal- 
vation, that he be regenerated and renewed by the operation 
■of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God, through Jesus 
'Christ. 

" That this divine grace, or energy of the Holy Ghost, 
which heals the disorders of a corrupt nature, begins, ad- 
vances^ and brings to perfection everything that can be 
-called good in man; and that, consequently, all good works, 
without exception, are to be attributed to God alone, and to the 
operation of his grace ; that, nevertheless, this grace does not 
force the man to act against his inclination, but may be re- 
sisted and rendered ineffectual by the perverse will of the im- 
penitent sinner.^ 

Here we see that James Arminius believed in the doctrine 
of general atonement. We have shown from the pages of 
history that this system began after the Eeformation, and 
13 



194 DEBATE ON 

that James Arminius first preached that system, and it has 
continued to be preached from that day to this. We haye 
no account whateyer of the Baptists eyer haying belieyed or 
preached any such thing preyious to the Reformation; and' 
when we come to trace up the articles of faith, we find that 
they agree, that they are the same to-day as they were then, 
and they set forth the doctrine and sentiments of the Bap- 
tists as they were held then and as they are held now. Theu 
here is the doctrine of the Baptists contrary to the articles Or 
faith that I haye read here as set forth by the Arminians. 

I haye a roll of minutes here that I want all of these peo- 
ple to look at. They look like Old Baptists' minutes, of 
course. These minutes were made before the diyision of the 
Baptists. I haye examined these minutes and there is one 
here as far back as 1S04, but I do not see anywhere in these- 
minutes where the Baptists in those days had a Sunday 
School, or a tract society, or a missionary board, or anything- 
of that sort. Xow, if the Baptists practiced this thing pre- 
vioas to the diyision, what is the reason they did not state 
it? When you examine the minutes of the Missionary Bap- 
tists, what do you see? Why, you see them filled up with 
these things which are not to be found in the minutes of the 
Baptists previous to the diyision. 

Here, for instance, are the minutes of the Saludia Associa- 
tion of 1804, with eighteen churches, and their expenses 
$26.77. From this I should think that if they sent out mis- 
sionaries then that it was done yery cheaply indeed. 

Next, I examine the minutes of the Bed Riyer Association 
of 1823 (which was also previous to the division), and 1 find 
that there were then in that association thirty churches, and 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 195 

the amoiiDt of mouey expended in defraying the expenses of 
these churches was -$35.75. 

Minutes Bethel Association of 1S27. Churches fifteen j 
expenses, 823.75. 

Minutes of the Little River Associa tion of 1828. Ch.urches, 
twenty; expenses, $29.82^. Eeinember these are all minutes 
of debts previous to the division of the Baptists, and you see 
from them that there was not a great amount of money spent 
among the Baptists in that day. 

Kow, let us see, if in that respect, the Missionary Baptists 
are on the same platform and have the same principles that 
these Baptists had. 

Here are the minutes of the Little River Association of 
United Baptists of 1869. They show that their expenses 
were $1,811.20." 

Minutes of the Little River Association of United Baptists 
of 1876. Expenses, 82,791.90. Our minutes of 1877 show 
that our expenses were 821.30. 

So, in that respect, we are certainly on the old ground 
still. We are on the ground of the old Baptists so far as 
the expenditure of money is concerned. We acknowledge 
that it takes a great deal more money nowadays- to run the 
machinery of these associations than it did away back there. 
They have certainly increased largely, for they have now 
great revivals among them, by which they increase their 
numbers wonderfully, they say. They spend a great deal of 
money; and if they could just succeed in converting them 
and making them hold out it would be a great thing, but we 
all know how many of these converts fall away. And it 
seems to me that if that was God's plan it would not be 
such a failure as it is. I have here before me a paper (the 



196 DEBATE ON 

Baptist WatcJiman, of date February 7, 1880) which contains ii 
a communication written by a Missionary Baptist, a part of 
which I will quote: 

" We glory in the growing influence, prosperity and in- 
crease, which has characterized our history as a denomina- 
tion. It sounds grand to say that one hundred thousand 
were received through baptism by our churches in the United 
States last year. But it it does not sound so grand to tell 
that the number of exclusions reached the appalling figure of 
thirty thousand, and that without very strict discipline 
either." 

Thirty thousand exclusions ! Nearly one-third of the whole 
number of converts, and that, too, as we are informed, " with- 
out a very strict discipline.'' Think what it would be if a 
strict discipline was enforced. 

I refer here now to the minutes of the Missionary Baptists 
to show their increases and decreases. The minutes of the 
Little Bethel Association of 1876 show an increase of two 
hundred and seventeen, and a decrease of two hundred and 
four J net gain, thirteen. The minutes of the Union United 
Baptists of 1871 show an increase of one hundred and 
eleven, and. a decrease of one hundred and thirty-five j loss, 
twenty-four. Minutes of the Little Elver Association of 
1875: increase, five hundred and thirty-fivej decrease, five 
hundred and thirteen; gain, twenty-one. Minutes of the 
Little Eiver Association of 187o: increase, three hundred and 
seventy J decrease, four hundred and forty-one j loss, seventy- 
one. Minutes of the Big Saline Association of 1873: increase, 
sixty: decrease, seventy-five; loss, fifteen. 

Now, let me ask, what benefit it would be to us to hold 
protracted meetings, and pretend to convert members, and to 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 197 

drag them into the pale of our churches, and in a short time 
to have confusion among us in having to exclude nearly one- 
third of those we had received by such methods. For my 
part I would rather be a few, and live in harmony and fellow- 
ship, as we Eegular Baptists do, than to have to receive such 
numbers and have all the time confusion among us in ex- 
cluding them. 



EEY. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am be- 
fore you this time to commence a work quite different from 
what I have been doing heretofore. I will, however, be- 
fore commencing, notice a few things pertaining to the sub- 
ject that Mr. Hardy has referred to. 

In the first place, he has read from Wayland, and he has 
been caught garbling a quotation from that book, as Coffey 
did from Benedict. What was Mr. Hardy's object in doing 
that! I leave it to this congregation. I tell you if I did 
such a thing as that, and was convicted of it, I would take 
it back. I say Mr. Hardy has misrepresented Wayland here. 
He has tried to leave the impression on the minds of this 
people that Wayland has stated here that some of our people 
'' dress up " Jesus Christ so that we would not be ashanaed of 
him. 

Mr. Hardy — I did not state that Mr. Wayland said that. 
I said that I read from Wayland. 

Mr. Wallace — jSTotice what is said here in Wayland, page 



198 DEBATE ON 

324: '' Dr. Wa viand's private kindness, and bis public labors, 
his patient watchfulness over the young, and his toils in the 
pulpit and in the pastoral office, his efforts for the enlarge- 
ment and liberalization of high education, and for an increase 
ia the numbers and in the efficiency of the ministry, were sim- 
ply the expression of his desire for the elevation and happi- 
ness of humanity.*' 

This is what he says of others; for he is speaking of the 
Puseyites, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, &c. Why did 
not you go on with the quotation you made here'^ Here is 
what follows: " He still cleaves to his old friends, the publi- 
cans and sinners; and if we will not meet him in such com- 
pany, he turns away from us. I have, of course, no objec- 
tion to education in the ministry; but I object to giving it a 
place not authorized by Jesus Christ, and making it a sine 
qua non." 

ISTow, what is a sine qua non f It means an indispensable 
condition. TVayland objected to it, because he says he was 
in favor of turning a man loose whether he had education or 
not, and letting every man do as much good as he could. 
Have not our people always done that? We have not de- 
graded men who have not theological education, but we are 
in favor of a theological education. Suppose a man with 
education does as much good as the man without education, 
is it any reason why the other man should not have educa- 
tion? Suppose brother Hardy could do as much good in 
one year as I could in two, is that any reason why you should 
take away mine? Every man feels it his duty to stand be- 
fore his God, and he uses his information the best he can, 
whether he has education or not. 

Mr. Hardy has raised this question of education and schools 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 199 

again, when I thought it had been settled. He brings it up, 
and appeals to me to reiterate what I said before. He does 
this, thinking it will throw me off from my line of argument j 
and I would not have referred to this matter again anyhow, 
had it not been for the fact that there are some persons here 
to-day that have not heard the answer I have made to these 
-charges before. ]!^ow, I ask Mr. Hardy, in the name of de- 
cency, to let these things alone. 

l^ow, here he comes with his tract affair, and says that we 
claim that that is a means of salvation, ^"ow, did not I have 
the question of means up here before, and did not he come 
back and say that he had never denied means'? But now he 
turns around and ridicules missions and the circulating of 
tracts. Don't the people here see that? What is a tract ? 
It is nothing but a short discourse. Now, has not a man a 
right to publish a discourse in a religious newspaper? Is not 
that a common and reasonable thing to do ? And can there 
be any objection to its being read ? Then why cannot God 
use tracts in the conversion of sinners as easily as he can use 
the gospel or the Bible ? Sometimes the smallest things will 
set a man to thinking seriously. I learn that Kewton was 
led to thinking by laying under a tree and seeing an apple 
fail. I once heard of a woman of the world who, on seeing 
a girl read a good book, asked the question how and why she 
'Spent her time in reading such books, instead of enjoying 
herself. She happened to cast her eye over the shoulder of 
the reader, and she saw in large letters the word, Eternity! 
^She retired to bed, and when her companion went up she 
found her weeping. On being questioned she said she had 
been thinking of that word eternity, and she said, '• O that I 
were prepared for eternity ! When I cast my eye on that 



200 DEBATE 01<r 

word, it made my heart sink to feel that I was not prepared 
for eterDity." And God used that as a means of leading to 
the conversion of that woman. Then why does Mr. Hardy 
ridicule and abuse the use of means, when he said yesterday 
that he believed in means, and had never denied it ? I tell 
you God is an all-powerful God. He works in many ways 
and with many means. We cannot confine the power of God. 
Mr. Hardy has talked a great deal about this, and has made 
the point, and the only point that he has made ; it is a total 
failure. 

'' Our minutes," he says, " show an expense of only 121.50.^^ 
Now, I recollect seeing a little affair at Still Creek Associa- 
tion, th.at was published by Thomas Harrison, that cost 
$12.50. Why did it not cost more ? Because there were only 
six hundred members in the association, and there were but 
a few copies needed. And the only reason that it costs their 
association so little to keep it up is because there are so few 
of them. Here the Little Eiver Association has the rise of 
five thousand members, and of course it costs them more for 
such things. So there is nothing whatever in his point of 
the relative cost. They have no Sunday Schools, nor do they 
circulate tracts; all they do is to publish lists of their dele- 
gates, and that costs but little. 

Mr. Hardy speaks of the fussing among us. Now, consid- 
ering the quarreling and fussing that have taken place 
among his people, it is in very bad taste for him to say any- 
thing about it. Eemember the trouble you had not long ago 
about this Two-Seedism doctrine, and when you were about 
to have a fuss about who made the devil, until brother 
Worlds shut you up about it. Bon't you think it is about 
time to let the subject of fusses drop? For my part, I don't 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 201! 

deny that there are fusses among us. I know that it is a^ 
shame that we should have them, but the devil gets a little 
the best of all of us sometimes. 

Now, for the satisfaction of some of the audience, I will 
quote Mr. Hardy's own author. Watson, page 399: ''Paul, 
however, does not affirm, like some of our modern innovators, 
that means or instrumentalities are not employed by the Lord 
in the divine plan of salvation.'^ This, I repeat, is from one 
of their own authors, and yet Mr. Hardy comes up here mak- 
ing light of tracts being means of converting a woman. 

i^ow, by this statement here you are an innovator ; you 
come under the head of innovators, according to Dr. Wat- 
son's testimony; and if you deny his statement, it is one of 
your own writers that you have to fight. Watson proceeds, 
''For he asks, ' How shall they hear without a preacher?' — 
Eomaus x. 14. Paul, it is true, preached the gospel in word 
only, while the election of God was manifested in the power 
and assurance of the Holy Spirit imparted to his words, when 
received by the elect, which apart from that power and assur- 
ance would have been received in word only, as it really was 
by others not embraced in the divine election." 

Now, the same book, page 532: "We have become repre- 
hensibly careless about means, as they are termed. Means, 
in the hands of God, partake of his power; in ours, of our 
strength only. We employ means with a prospect of success 
only in faith, irrespectively of any confidence in them apart 
from the power of God." And to-day, brethren, I know that 
if the divine Spirit of God does not accompany us, we may 
use the language of Martha in regard to her brother that had 
died, when she said, " Lord, if thou hadst been here, my 
brother had not died." And I know whenever the word is- 



202 DEBATE ON 

spoken, unless the divine Spirit accompanies it, a sinner will 
never be moved by it. I know that, because the word em- 
phatically says that no man can come to the Son unless God 
the Father draw him. I know the divine Spirit of God must 
touch the sinner's heart and draw him to Christ; and conse- 
•quently when the divine Spirit of God is preached, when the 
divine Spirit accompanies the word, the sinners heart will be 
-touched. I have stated before the difference between these 
people and us, but I will state it again. While we preach 
salvation by grace and damnation by works, they preach sal- 
vation by grace and damnation by the eternal decrees of 
God; that is to say, a sinner was never given any chance for 
his life. 

" Such things,*' says Watson, '' become special duties per- 
formed according to the commandment of the Lord. Hence 
it was a duty on the part of the leper to bathe in Jordan, for 
Moses to smite the rock, for the crew to remain in the ship, 
for John to say, ' Kepent, for the kingdom of heaven is at 
hand,' for the disciples to say, 4 Repent, and believe on the 
Lord Jesus Christ,' and for Paul and Peter to exhort and ad- 
monish the brethren. We should always employ means in 
faith. We should regard the employment of them on our 
part only as a duty. In this way the use of means is per- 
fectly consistent with our doctrine ; and in this manner they 
were employed by all the Bible worthies." 

That is what Dr. Watson says, that they were employed 
•by Bible worthies. And yet here is Mr. Hardy and his peo- 
ple heaping their vituperations on missions and Missionary 
Baptists, and they do it to-day. 

Watson continues : " God has assuredly connected his work 
•of grace in this world with many visible signs, outward du- 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 203 

ties, commandments, exhortations or means, as you may be 
pleased to name them. When one says he does not believe 
in the use of means, it amounts to his saying he does not 
believe in a performance of christian duties, for we cannot 
disparage one without the other. 

*' Suppose Moses had said means are of no use, neither the 
rod nor the stretching forth of my arm can do good in this 
extremity ; the leper that the waters of Jordan cannot cure 
leprosy; Paul that it is not necessary for the crew to remain 
in the ship." 

You remember that Paul said that an angel stood by him 
and said that not one of the crew would be lost; and Paul 
tells them, " Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be 
saved," notwithstanding God had told him that he would be 
saved. It is evident that their safety was to lie in the use of 
means, and God had given them the means , and consequent- 
ly, by obeying them, they were saved. And God to-day in- 
vites the sinner to come .and be saved, and offers him the 
means; and to-day these Missionaries are sending out the 
gospel to the world, and whosoever will may come. Paul 
says to Timothy, when he admonishes that prayer and ex- 
hortations should be made for all men, for he says that it is 
pleasing in the sight of God. And he says, " Who will have 
all men to be saved." Ii^ow, was this God's decreed will? If 
it was, will not all the human family be saved? and does not 
every man know it is not God's decreed will that all shall be 
saved? As w^e have children, it is our will that they should 
do right, but at the same time they do not do right ; but we 
do not cast them off forever. God is merciful, for he has 
sworn it. He has said, "As I live, saith the Lord God, I 
have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." " Turn ye, 



204 DEBATE ON 

turn ye from your evil ways; for wLy will ye die F I say 
that this is language too plain for any reasonable man to 
doubt it. But Cofiey says, No, the sinners are dead. They 
are not subjects of gospel address, and we will not address 
them. God's word does not preach in that way. ♦ 

One of the questions I asked brother Hardy was, How 
many Baptists were there in the United States in 1832? and 
I assert, fearless of contradiction, that he cannot answer that 
question. In his last speech he said something about there 
being no obligation upon him to answer these questions. I 
know if they had been put to me, or any other questions. 
I would have attempted to answer them, or have contended 
that they were irrelevant. In 1832 there were three hundred 
and eighty-five thousand Baptists in the United States. The 
separation was going on for eight years. In 1840 there were 
six hundred and forty thousand Baptists in the United States 
when the separation took place. Belcher, on page 243, gives 
you the highest number in the woyld. He says there were 
sixty-four thousand of them went out. Now, divide six hun- 
dred and forty thousand by sixty four thousand, and you 
find that where one left a church there were nine remained. 
Now, is not that turning out men with a vim? One man 
turned out where nine remained ! Now, ladies and gentle- 
men, you see the utter impossibility of these Old Baptists hav- 
ing done what they claim to have done. They do not have 
the majority to do it even if they had been in the right. I 
maintain that they cannot show that they turned us out of 
the church. I asked Mr. Hardy to tell this people how many 
they had excluded from their church. There is no trouble 
about answering that question. The next question is, What 
is his present number? He has explained about our num- 



CHTJROH IDENTITY. 205 

bers, now I want to know how he gets at our numbers; for 
we ourselves do not number our people. What is the num- 
ber over here at the Still Creek Association? Four hundred 
and six. He sent for the minutes of the antiraission body, 
and it shows his number is forty thousand. And I say if 
you had left our denomination alone, if it were not for the 
labors of brother Kirkpatrick, as well as brother Green, 
among our denomination, I expect the number would come 
down to ten or fifteen in every church; and yet they are 
heaping their vituperations upon us, and at the same time 
receiving members from our congregation into their church — 
as many as they can get. 



ELDER HAEDY SATD: 



Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I will 
speak first of the quotation Mr. Wallace accuses me of having 
garbled, and I will merely remark in reply to his accusation 
that I began the quotation and read until I came to a full 
stop. It is true that I did not read to the end of the quota- 
tion, but neither did Mr. Wallace, and so far as that is con- 
cerned it amounts to nothing. 

Mr. Wallace then goes on to explain wh> it is that the cost 
of our associations did not amount to as much as his, and he 
gives as the chief reason that it is because there are so few 
of us in comparison with his denomination. You will re- 
member that I quoted from the minutes of the Little Eiver 
Association of the year 1828, just a «hort time previous to 



206 DEBATE ON 

the division, where the expense of the association to be de- 
frayed was bat $29.S2i^. He dwells largely on the point of 
his order being such a large body of people. Where did this 
large body of people come from ? According to his testimony 
here, it was not from among the Baptists previous to the 
division, because here in 1S2S we see that the Little Eiver 
Association had only an expense of $29.82^. Then he goes 
on to say that we do not preach the full gospel, and he quotes 
gospel to prove it, •' Ye will not come to me, that ye might 
have life.*' Let us investigate that. Who spake that lan- 
guage? Jesus himself. And doubtless Jesus was then talk- 
ing to the dead sinner. Jesus knew they would not do it- 
But let us not garble the Bible. Jesus says to these charac- 
ters, "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 
I receive not honor from men. But I know you. that ye have 
not the love of God in you." That is the reason they would 
not come. According to the language, just as long as a sin- 
ner is destitute of the love of God he might come to Christ. 

Then Mr. Wallace quotes the language of Paul to abide in 
the ship. Xow, was he talking about the eternal salvation^ 
or did he say if they did not abide in the ship that they 
would be drowned! I understand that there is a common 
or temporal salvation spoken of in the Bible, and I under- 
stand that there is an eternal salvation. I understand that 
this common or temporal salvation belongs to us, but it 
takes the power of God to save sinners in eternal salvation. 

Coffey, page 122. Mr. Wallace said something about Gano 
being a missionary from the Philadelphia Baptists. Well, I 
told you 1 did not object to the Bible missionaries; I cannot 
object to the Bible missionaries on the Bible plan: but we 
■finderstand that this John Gano went to preach, and it is> 



II 



OHXJROH IDENTITY. 207 

said that by his labors the churches that composed the Ke- 
hukee Association were reformed. These churches previous 
to the time they were reformed were not General Baptists. 
But they were reformed by John Gano, Peter Yauhorn, and 
others. I want to show you what John Gano believed, m 
his letter to Dr. Watson, Dr. Howell speaks of it, and I will 
refer you to my former quotation of it. 

Benedict, second volume, page 98: " In this situation this 
cluster of churches continued until more orthodox principles 
were introduced and a spirit of reformation began to prevail, 
which finally leavened the whole body, and transformed it: 
into an association of Calvinistic, or as they were then called,. 
Regular Baptists. 

Now, these churches, according to the testimony here, were 
what were called, in that day, " General Baptists," and we 
learn from Mr. Benedict here that they were reclaimed, and 
they embraced what was called the •' Calvinistic," or what 
was called the " Eegular Baptist " doctrine. " The introduc- 
tion of Calvinistic sentiments amongst them, which had the 
happy effect of purifying the churches, took place about the 
year 1751, and was caused partly by the preaching of Eobert 
Williams, of the Welchneck, in Sf)uth Carolina, partly by the 
conversation of *a layman, commonly called sley-maker, whose- 
name was William Wallis; but chiefly by the labors of John 
Gano, who visited them in the summer of 1754." 

Kehukee Association, page 262. Now, remember these 
churches were reformed, and we learn that it was done partly 
by the conversation of lay members, and partly by Peter 
Yanhorn, Benjamin Miller, and John Gano. What did they 
"believe after they reformed? They believed the doctrine of 
the Eegular Baptists, and that association is the Eegular 



■208 DEBATE ON 

Baptist Association of to-day. ''In the year 1791, there 
<3ame from Europe a certain Mr. Frost, in the habit of a Bap- 
tist preacher, who at first seemed to be approved of, but soon 
l)egan to deny the faith of the church, and preach the doc- 
trines of free will, supposing a man had power to work him- 
self into a state of favor with God. This man caused great 
uneasiness in the church. The brethren appointed a com- 
mittee to wait upon him and try to gain him over to embrace 
the principles of the church ; but he remained incorrigible. 

•^' The church appointed another committee to go and try 
to silence him, but could not prevail. He said he had a meet- 
ing to attend the Wednesday night following, and he should 
preach. But the Lord interfered in behalf of his distressed 
church, for when Frost went to preach again, and took his 
text, which was ' He shall thoroughly purge his floor, and 
gather his wheat into his garner;' and coming to the words, 
' purge his floor/ his tongue failed ; he cried, ' Let us pray,' 
but sunk on his knees, and spoke not another word. He 
was dead in less than three hours." 

You see from this what these people in those days believed. 
They did not believe in the free will doctrine, supposing that 
a man could work himself into the favor of God. These peo- 
ple believed emphatically that salvation was by grace. 

Kehukee, page 51. I will read the articles of faith adopted 
by these people, and see if they correspond with the articles 
of faith that the Baptists believe to-day. 

" 1. We believe in the being of God, as almighty, eternal, 
unchangeable, of infinite wisdom, power, justice, holiness, 
goodness, mercy and truth ; and that this God has revealed 
himself in his word under the characters of Father, Son and 
Holy Ghost. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 209 

^'2. We believe that Almighty God has made known his 
mind and will to the children of men in his word, which word 
"we believe to be of divine authority, and contains all things 
necessary to be known for the salvation of men and women. 
The same is comprehended or contained in the books of the 
Old and Xew Testaments, as are commonly received. 

*'3. We believe that God, before the foundation of the 
world, for a purpose of his own glory, did elect a certain 
number of men and angels to eternal life; and that this elec- 
tion is particular, eternal, and unconditional on the creature's 
part. 

*' 4. We believe that when God made man at first he was 
perfect, holy and upright, able to keep the law, but liable to 
fall, and that he stood as a federal head or representative of 
all his natural offspring, and that they were to be made par- 
takers of the benefits of his obedience, or exposed to the 
mi^ry which sprang from his disobedience. 

" 5. We believe that Adam fell from this state of moral 
rectitude, and that he involved himself and all his natural 
offspring in a state of death; and for that original transgres- 
sion we all are both filthy and guilty in the sight of an holj'^ 
God. 

" 6. We also believe that it is utterly out of the power of 
men, as fallen creatures, to keep the law of God perfectly, 
repent of their sins truly, or believe in Christ, except they be 
drawn by the Holy Spirit. 

" 7. We believe that in God's own appointed time and way 
(by means which he has ordained) the elect shall be called, 
justified, pardoned and sanctified; and that it is impossible 
U 



210 DEBATE ON 

they can utterly refuse the call; but shall be made Trilling, by 
divine grace, to receive the ofi'ers of mercy. 

'' 8. We believe that justification in the sight of God is 
only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, received 
and applied by faith alone. 

*^ 9. We believe in like manner that God's elect shall not 
only be called and justified, but that they shall be converted, 
born again, and changed by the effectual working of God's 
Holy Spirit. 

'' 10. AYe believe that such as are converted, justified and 
called by his grace shall persevere in holiness, and never fall 
finally away. 

'' 11. We believe it to be a duty incumbent on all God's 
people to walk religiously in good works; not in the old cove- 
nant way of seeking life, and the favor of the Lord by it, but 
only as a duty from a principle of love. 

" 12. We believe Baptism and the Lord's Supper are ^s- 
pel ordinances, both belonging to the converted, or true be- 
lievers; and that persons who were sprinkled or dipped whilst 
in unbelief were not regular baptized according to God's 
word, and that such ought to be baptized after they are sav- 
ingly converted into the faith of Christ. 

'' 13. We believe that every church is independent in mat- 
ters of discipline; and that associations, councils and confer- 
ences of several ministers or churches are not to impose on 
the churches the keeping, holding or maintaining any princi- 
ple or practice contrary to the church's judgment. 

'< 14. We believe in the resurrection of the dead, both of 
the just and unjust, and a general judgment. 

" 15. We believe the punishment of the wicked is everlast- 
ing, and the joys of the righteous are eternal. 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 211 

" 16. We believe that no minister has a right to the ad- 
ministration of the ordinances only such as are regularly 
called, and come under imposition of hands by the pres- 
bytery." 

Kehukee, page 49. Kow, here is what these Baptists say 
in regard to their articles of faith: " It was necessary at this 
time for the churches to present in tJieir letters to the associ- 
ation a confession of their faith j because, first, some of them 
were churches that claimed the prerogative of being the Ke- 
hukee Association, that never had departed from their or- 
iginal principles." 

If articles of faith were no test of fellowship then, and if 
every member was at liberty to do as he pleased, I want to 
know why it was necessary for them to present the articles 
of faith at that time. Don't you know that when a new 
church is constituted they have to bring something to show 
in order to secure admission into our order ? And if they do 
not do it, we do not receive them. It has ever been the prac- 
tice of the Baptists so to do. 

Philadelphia Association, page 69. I want you to notice 
while I read here : " Upon which fundamental doctrines of 
Christianity, next to the belief of an eternal God, our faith 
must rest; and we adopt, and would that all the churches 
belonging to the Baptist Association be well grounded in 
accordance to our confession of faith and catechism, and can- 
not allow that any are true members of our churches who de- 
ny the said principles, be their conversation outward what it 
will." Why, if they deny articles of faith, they cannot be 
members of their church, it says, it makes no difference what 
their outward conversation may be. It makes no difference 
that they believe it; they must practice it. It is our duty to 



212 DEBATE ON 

practiee what we profess; and it is our duty, if we accept 
these articles of faith, to do as the Baptists away back there 
did — not to suffer any to be members of our- churches unless 
they stood up to this rule. They would not allow it away 
back there, and I say we should not allow it now. Here is 
their doctrine set forth as the Baptists of those days believed. 

I will now read the articles of faith of the Baptists, in their 
minutes of 1806. Here are the articles of faith that the 
Baptists held when the Bed Eiver Association was organized 
in 1806. The Little liiver Association was organized with 
the same articles, and in the division in 1832 each party took* 
the articles of faith that the Baptists were governed by pre- 
vious to that time, and they hold them yet — the Missionaries 
as well as our denomination. 

[These articles are already incorporated in a former argu- 
ment of the speaker.] 

Here are the articles of faith of the Missionary Baptists of 
the Big Saline Association of 1863: 

'' 1. We believe that the Holy Bible is the written word of 
God, written by men divinely inspired, and is the only suffi- 
cient and perfect rule of faith and practice, and that it teaches 

the following truths: 

****** 

" 5. That the election taught in the Scriptures is through 
sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience and the sprinkling 
of the blood of Jesus Christ, and that none are authorized to 
consider themselves elected until they repent and obey the 
gospel. 

" 6. That the Redeemer, by the grace of God, tasted death 
for every man; that he is the Savior of all men, especially 
those that believe, and that based on the provisions of the 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 213 

atonement, all men everywhere are commanded to repent and 
obey the gospel. 

'' 7. That the influence of the Spirit is coextensive with the 
proclamation of the gospel." 



EEY. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentle^ien Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am 
sorry, brethren, that you have been bored as you have for the 
last half hour. But never mindj I will give you something 
good now. When Mr. Hardy and myself had the (discussion 
over in Livingston County, before I went there I did not know 
but what I had quite a contestant to deal with. I supposed 
we would have quarrels about the grammatical construction 
of sentences, the meaning of words, &c.j and for that reason 
I took along with me Webster's unabridged dictionary j but 
I found very soon that I would have no use for that work. 

The first thing that Mr. Hardy speaks about is in regard 
to the " Bible plan " of missions. I would just ask him why 
he does not show the Missionary Baptists what the Bible 
plan of missionism is. If he has a Bible plan, why does not 
he practice it? What kind of a plan is the Bible plan ? and 
why does not he teach that plan to our people? I know the 
reason for this change. He knows that I will find the exist- 
ence of missionary operations in the Bible before this discus- 
sion closes, and consequently he now turns around and says 
that he believes in it on the Bible plan. I think if Mr. Hardy 



214 DEBATE ON 

and his people would practice that plau, that they might theu 
be able to do some good. 

Next, Mr. Hardy brings up the question of salvation by 
grace. I have repeated, time and again, that the difference 
between him and me is that I and my people believe in sal- 
vation by grace and damnation by works, while they believe 
in salvation by grace and damnation by the decrees of God. 
That is the proposition that we laid down, and Mr. Hardy 
has not met it. Kow, I hope I will not be called upon to dis- 
cuss this point any further. 

I ask Mr. Hardy the question as to the number of his de- 
nomination in Europe. I assert that he has not got a single 
one. There is not an Antimission Baptist anywhere except 
in the United States. They never did have one there and 
never will. I know that is saying right smart, and I will 
qualify it by saying, unless they get out of their old grooves, 
and go and preach the gospel to some other people besides 
those in the United States. 

]N"ow, brethren, in reference to this missionary matter. The 
word missionary is derived from the Latin word 7nito, which 
means one sent. The word Apostle is derived from the Latin 
word Apostello, and means the same thing. Consequently 
they are synonymous terms. I ask you, then, why it is in 
every sermon you preach you calumniate and vilify the Mis- 
sionaries. I see brother Watkins nods his head. Why, don't 
you preach that, brother Watkins? Why don't you stop 
your party from heaping their calumniations upon missionary 
operations ? 

Then I ask Mr. Hardy to tell who first brought the gospel 
to America. I answer emphatically that the Missionaries 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 215 

did J and these people of brother Hardy's to-day owe their 
existence to missionary work. We are the father of them. 
Mr. Hardy talked about a man trying to prove himself older 
than his "mammy." I would like to know whether it is 
worse than a man trying to prove himself older than his 
father. I say to brother Hardy that his denomination owes 
its existence to- day to the missionary labors. If the gospel 
had not been brought to us by those who believed in missions, 
we would to-day have been like the heathen nations. 1 tell 
you that, instead of being able to meet together as we do and 
worship the true God, we would have been similar to the 
other stocks and stones, and nothing would have been heard 
throughout the land but idolatry. I tell you that, instead of 
these great institutions of humanity and benevolence that we 
have among us, we would have been offering up human sac- 
rifices 5 we would have been bowing down to stocks and 
stones, and offering up our sacrifices to idols. Yet these peo- 
ple who are abusing missionary operations to-day owe their 
enlightenment on the gospel to these very operations. I tell 
you that it is nothing but the gospel that has made us what 
we are today. What is the condition of the heathen nations 
of the world to-day, that have not had the glorious gospel of 
the Son of God presented to them ? Yet those men who 
have, out of the purest motives, left their native countries to 
■go into the land of the heathen for the purpose of converting 
them, are abused and calumniated by Mr. Hardy and his peo- 
ple. And it is not confined to that. As I said before, we 
liave this great organization that prints and distributes Bibles 
to all who are not able to buy them, so that the gospel may 
reach every creature. They say that you shall not exhort the 



216 DEBATE ON 

sinner to come to God. Was this the principle of the ancient 
Baptists ? Was it when the people came and asked, " What 
shall we do to be saved P They would tell them this is the 
word of God, to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, to believe 
in God. 

I asked Mr. Hardy to tell me whether the words " repent '^ 
and ^' believe," as commanded by Christ, were in the active 
or passive voice. I will answer that question , and say that 
" repent '' and '< believe " are in the active voice. Does not 
the sinner have to exercise repentance and to believe, and 
does not the minister have to bring them to that repentance ? 
Christ called that his work. But then you say the sinner is 
dead, and not a subject of gospel address. And it is because 
of this system of yours that you are dying so fast } and I tell 
you, you would have been dead long ago if it had not been 
for the efforts of the Missionaries, and the Methodists, and 
Presbyterians, in converting sinners, and from whom you 
receive members and rejoice over them. You do not believe 
the gospel is a means of salvation^ I will hazard the asser- 
tion that you may take the gospel away from the people of 
America, and any smart man can introduce idolatry. There 
is superstition in every man. You may go around in this 
part of the country, and you will find horse-shoes tacked 
over the doors in order, as the occupants say, to keep away 
witches, and some put them there for good luck. And all 
this in the face of the fact that we have the gospel, in all its 
fullness, over this land; we have the revealed word of God 
to guide us, and yet such superstitions as these exist in this- 
and other States. What, I say, would be the state of things 
if the gospel were taken entirely away from this country ? I 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 217 

say we would have idolatry in a comparatively short space of 
time, and no reasonable man of the world will deny this 
proposition. 

The next question I propound to Mr. Hardy, and of which 
I will now speak, is. Did you ever send a missionary on any- 
plan whatever? If so, from what church and from what 
association did you send him ? and what kind of missionary 
operations has he 'engaged in? Mr. Hardy says that he 
believes in the Bible plan of missionaries, and I suppose his 
Bible plan is the plan upon which brother- Fulkerson was 
sent to Kansas to organize a church, and had his expenses 
paid by the brethren here. I presume that is Mr. Hardy's 
plan, as that is the only case he has mentioned. Is that 
your Bible plan? Brother Hardy, I think you can get a 
mucti better plan than that if you will only try, and I would 
suggest that you bring your intellect to bear on this subject- 
if you and your brethren actually believe in a Bible plan of 
missionaries. Actions speak louder than words. Does not 
this people know that these Baptists do not believe in 
missionaries on any plan whatever? If I were to say to 
you to-day that I believe in a certain thing, and you saw me 
act to the contrary, what would you think about it? If I 
were to tell you I could raise as much corn by planting it in 
October as at another time, and I never planted any in 
October, would you believe what I said? These people say 
that they believe in a Bible plan of missionaries. Did they 
ever attempt any plan whatever? If so, tell me what plan. 
Why does he not inform this congregation about that plan? 
We Missionary Baptists would like to hear of it, for it is 
possible that we may be wrong in our plan^and it is his duty 



218 -DEBATE ON 

to enlighten us and put us right. Why does not he do that 
to-day instead of abusing us, and heaping his vituperations 
and calumniations upon us ? There are people here interested 
in these things, and I think in the next two days Mr. Hardy 
can get up a missionary plan and let us hear about it. I am 
for truth; God knows I do not wish a victory at the expense 
of truth. I would much rather stay at home, for I expect to 
answer to God for my deeds j and when eternity is before me, 
and my spirit must be ushered into the divine presence of 
"God, I shall have to answer for my stewardship here. Then 
tell us what your plan is. This is certainly not an unreason- 
able request. I^ow, i^erhaps you will tell us in the next two 
days what is the Bible plan of missionary operations. 

The next question I asked him was if he ever had a theo- 
logical school or seminary, Bible or tract society, or organ- 
ized prayer meetings, or protracted meetings. Now that I 
have come to the question of protracted meetings, I will say 
to the congregation that I have not time to take up history 
on the present occasion; but when I come to take up history 
on that point, I will show you protracted meetings that were 
held years before there was any separation between this 
people and us. I will show you revivals in the Association 
of Kehukee, which is now an Antimission body. And what 
was the result of these glorious revivals? What accessions 
there were to the church ! and what a spirit of religion ex- 
isted in the body at that time, and before they believed as 
they do now ! I will show you these glorious revivals that 
these people had in this country while we were united as 
one church, and I will show you just the same thing in our 
denomination nofr. There are some brethren here who know 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 219 

what is going to come on this sabject. And after I prove 
that, I propose to go back and prove these revivals in ancient 
times. 

Brethren, I will not engage you any more this evening, but 
hope to have your strict attention to-morrow, and especially 
when I refer to history and get into the Bible. I thank you, 
ladies and gentlemen, for the respectful attention you have 
given me. 

The Moderators — Mr. Wallace's time has not yet expired. 

Mr. Wallace — All right; I am out of soap for this evening. 

[Thereupon, after the benediction being pronounced, the discussion 
was adjourned until to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock.] 



ELDER HARDY SAID: 



[Fourth Day — Morning Session.] 
[The meeting was called to order, and after prayer by Mr. Spencer, the 
rules governing the debate were read by Mr. Moderator Perkins.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am 
before you again, and if you remember, on yesterday eve- 
ning, when I closed my last speech, I had just read the arti- 
cles of faith of the Big Saline Association, dated 1863. I 
purpose this morning to refer to and make a few remarks 
concerning them. JS'ow, while I was reading these articles 
on yesterday, could not this people see a departure from 



220 DEBATE ON 

the primitive condition on the part of the Missionary Bap- 
tists ? I will again read the sixth article : 

" 6. That the Eedeemer, by the grace of God, tasted death 
for every man ; that he is the Savior of all men, especially 
those that believe." 

l^ow, I admit that this is Scripture. I refer to it in order 
to show that it is frequently misapplied. In what sense is 
he the Savior of all men ? Is he the Savior of anybody he 
does not save? If not, does he save all in an eternal 
sense ? Well, if he does not, then eternal salvation is not 
the salvation under consideration. He is the Savior of all 
men, but especially of them that believe. Now, please tell 
me how he can be an equal Savior of all the race of men, 
and at the same time be a special Savior of a part of the 
race. 

Examine the seventh clause of these articles of faith I 
have referred to : " That the influence of the Spirit is coex- 
tensive with the proclamation of the gospel." Does not the 
Missionary Baptist Church accuse us of not giving the entire 
race of men a chance ? This is their bugbear. Xow, Mr. 
Wallace, please tell me if the influence of the Spirit is coex- 
tensive with the proclamation of the gospel. What do you 
understand from that I Do you understand that one extends 
as far as the other? Is that what is meant by the term 
coextensive? Then you must take the position that the 
Spirit does not go where the gospel is not preached j and 
consequently, as there are millions that have not heard the 
gospel preached, what chance have they to go to heaven ? 

The fifth clause of these articles speaks in regard to elec- 
tion. I have spoken a good deal in this discussion about this 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 221 

subject of election. I have set up my positiou iu regard to 
that matter. I take the position that the election taught in 
the Bible was personal, eternal, and unconditional. This 
election taught in the Scriptures is through the sanctification 
of the Spirit unto obedience. But I understand from the 
minutes of the Big Saline Association that we -are elected 
when we obey the Son of God ; but let me tell you, the Bible 
does not mean such election as that. I understand election 
to be a choice, and consequently the Bible says that we are 
elected before the foundation of the world, that we should 
be holy and without blame before him in love ; and it says 
that we are not to consider ourselves elected until we obey. 
But enough on that point. 

Benedict, page 359 : '^ Jolm Bunyan, the author of .the Pil- 
grim^s Progress, I shall place at the head of this list. This 
name is probably more generally known than any other of 
the old Baptist authors.'' Maik what Mr. Benedict says. 
He states here that John Bunyan was an Old baptist author. 
I propose to make a few quotations from Bunyan, and while 
I do so, bear in mind that Mr. Wallace has said that we could 
not trace our denomination back of the year 1832. He tries 
to prove this statement by telling what this woman believed 
and what that man believed, or what I believe and what some 
other Baptists believe : but is that what we are going to 
decide by? I do not propose to prove that the Baptists that 
came up .by regular succession were just such Baptists as 
some individuals we find in the Regular Baptist denomina- 
tion of to-day, but I say that the Baptists as a denomination 
stand on the primitive platform. And let me say again, be- 
fore I commence reading here, that Mr. Benedict states posi- 



222 DEBATE ON 

tively that John BnDyan is one of the Old Baptist authors. 
He lived long before there were any Missionary Baptists. 
He was put in prison for preaching the doctrine I am setting- 
forth here, as we will ascertain presently. He was in prison 
two hundred and twenty years ago, and we will see now 
where the Old Baptists came from. 

Bunyan's works, page 567 : '' 'AH that the Father giveth 
me' shall come. In these last words there is closely inserted 
an answer unto the Father's end in giving of his elect unto 
Jesus Christ. The Father's end was, that they might come 
to him and be saved by him, and that, says the Son, shall be 
done; neither sin nor Satan, neither flesh nor world, neither 
wisdom nor folly, shall hinder their coming to me. ' They 
shall come to me, and he that cometh to me I will in no wise 
cast out.' " Does not that sound like the old Baptist doc- 
trine away back there? Here is a man that was put in 
prison for disseminating his doctrines over two hundred years 
ago, just as the Baptists were in the dark ages. 

Same book, page 577 : "And now, before I go any further, 
I will more particularly inquire into the nature of an abso- 
lute promise : 

" 1. We call that an absolute promise that is made without 
any condition, or more fullythus: That is an absolute prom- 
ise of God or of Christ which maketh over to this or that 
man any saving spiritual blessing, without a condition to be 
done on our part for the obtaining thereof. And this we 
have in hand is such a one. Let the best master of arts show 
me, if he can, any condition in this text depending upon any 
qualification in us which is not by the same promise con- 
cluded shall be by the Lord Jesus effected in us. 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 223 

" 2. An absolute promise therefore is, as we say, without if 
or and; that is, it requireth nothiug of us that itself may be 
accomplished. It saith not, They shall if they will, but, They 
shall ; not, They shall if they use the means, but, They shall. 
You may say that a will and the use of the means is sup- 
posed, though not expressed. But I answer, Xo, by no 
means j that is, as a condition of this promise. If they be at 
all included in the promise, they are included there as the 
fruit of the absolute promise, not as if it expected the quali- 
fication to arise from us. 'Thy i^eople shall be' willing 'in 
the day of thy power.' — Psalm ex. 3. That is another abso- 
lute promise ; but doth that promise suppose a willingness in 
us as a condition of God's making us willing \ They shall be 
willing if they are willing, or. They shall be willing if they 
will be willing. This is ridiculous; there is nothing of this 
supposed. The promise is absolute as to us ; all that it en- 
gageth for its own accomplishment is the mighty power of 
Christ and his faithfulness to accomplish." 

Xow, who preaches this doctrine that I am reading before 
you to-day ? I don't think it is worth while for me to make- 
any comment on this passage, because every individual in 
this congregation knows that that is the doctrine of the Reg- 
ular Baptists of to-day. Every intelligent man knows that 
the Eegular Baptists are the otily people that preach the doc- 
trine set forth here in Bunyan. 

Page 580. Here are objections to this system that was put 
forth then. I will read you what these objections are. 

'* Objection 6. But how if they have not faith and repent- 
ance ? How- shall they come then ? 

"Answer. Why, he that saith, ' They shall come,' shall he- 



224: DEBATE ON 

not make it good ? If they shall comej they shall come : and 
he that hath said they shall come, if faith and repentance be 
the way to come, as indeed they are, then faith and repent- 
ance shall be given to them, for • shall come" must be ful- 
filled on them. 

'•1. Faith shall be given them. • I will also leave in the 
midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall 
trust in the name of the Lord. There shall be a root of 
Jesse, and he shall rise to reign over the Gentiles : and in 
him shall the Gentiles trust.' 

"2. They shall have repentance. He is exalted to give 
repentance : ' They shall come weeping, and seeking the Lord 
their God.' And again, ' With weeping and supplication will 
I lead them." '' 

Page 584. I want this entire congregation to pay strict 
attention to what I am now about to read. This Buuyan 
was a smart man, as everybody knows. '-He gave some 
Apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and 
some pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, 
for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body 
of Christ, till we all come in the unity of faith and of the 
knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the 
measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. 

^'Mark, as in the text, so h^e he speaketh of all — < Until 
we all come.' We all. All who ? Doubtless ' all that the 
Father giveth to Christ.' This is further insinuated, because 
he calleth this all the body of Christ, the measure of the 
stature of the fullness of Christ, by which he means the uni- 
versal number given — to wit, the true elect church, which is 
said to be his body and fullness." Do you want any sounder 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 225 

doctrine than that? Did you ever hear any sounder doc- 
trine than that I have just read? Did you ever hear any- 
thing nearer the doctrine of eternal truth than that? The 
Baptists stood on the doctrine of eternal truth away back 
there, and I thank God they stand on it to-day. 

Page 599: "The coming to Christ is not by the will, wis- 
dom, or power, of man. This is true, because the word doth 
positively say it is not. 

<' 1. It denieth it to be the will of man. ' :N'ot of blood, 
nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man.' And again, 
* It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth.'" 

JS'ow, I will read to you the articles of faith of John 
Bunyan. He says these are his articles, and this is what he 
believes : 

" I believe that this faith is effectually wrought in none 
but those which, before the world, were appointed unto 
glory. 'And as many as were ordained unto eternal life 
believed, that he might make known the riches of his glory 
upon the vessels of mercy which he had before prepared 
unto glory. We give thanks unto God always for you all, 
making mention always of you in our prayers, remembering 
without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love, and 
patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of 
Ood J knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.' 
But of the rest he saith, ' Ye believed not, because ye are 
not of my sheep, as I said,' which latter words relate to the 
sixteenth verse, which respecteth the election of God. 
' Therefore they could not believe, because (Esaias saith 
again) he hath blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, 
15 



226 DEBATE ON 

that they should not see Tvith their eyes, nor understaDd 
with their heart, and I should heal them.'" 

Now, I will read from the same page in article second. 

"2. I believe that this doctrine, choice, or election, was 
before the foundation of the world, and so before the elect 
themselves had being in themselves j for God who quick- 
eneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as 
though they were, stays not for the being of things to deter- 
mine his eternal purpose by ; but having all things present 
to him, in his wisdom made the choice before the world was. 

" 3. I believe that the decree of election is so far from 
making works in us foreseen the ground or cause of the 
choice that it containeth in the bowels of it not only the 
persons, but the graces that accompany their salvation. 
And hence it is said that ' we are predestined to be con- 
formed to the image of the Son,' not because we are, but 
' that we should be, holy and ' without blame before him in 
love. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus 
unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we 
should walk in them. He blessed us according as he chose 
us in Christ.' And hence it is said again, that the salvation 
and calling of which we are now made partakers is no other 
than what was given us in Christ Jesus before the world 
began, according to his eternal purpose, which he purposed 
in Christ Jesus our Lord. 

" 4. I believe that Christ Jesus is he in whom the elect are 
always considered, and that without him there is neither 
election, grace, nor salvation, 'Having predestinated us to 
the adoption of children, by Jesus Christ, to himself, accord- 
ing to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory 
of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 227 

Beloved ; in whom we bave redemption through his blood, 
the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. 
That in the dispensation of the fullness of time he might 
gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are 
in heaven and which are in earth, even in him. Neither is 
there salvation in any other ; for there is none other name 
under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.' 
" 5. I believe there is not any impediment attending the elect 
of God that can hinder their conversion and eternal salvation. 
'Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called^ 
and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he 
justified, them he also glorified. What shall we say then to 
these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is 
God that justifieth; who is him that condemneth? &c. 
What, then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh 
for, but the elect hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.'" 
Page 824: " I believe that the Holy Scriptures, of them- 
selves, without the addition of human inventions, are able to 
make the man of God perfect in all things, and thoroughly 
to furnish him unto all good works." 

I know the Missionary Baptists are getting tired of this 
book; it is enough to tire them. Will Mr. Wallace come up 
and say that this is not the identical Baptist that is among 
our people to-day ? Will he say that we as a denomination 
have departed from the principles that are here set forth over 
two hundred years ago? I want to say here again that this 
is the belief of a man who was put in prison for believing in 
these doctrines two hundred and twenty years ago. 

Cramp, page 579. Here the historian speaks of some in- 
stitutions erected by these Missionary Baptists. 



228 DEBATE ON 

A. D. 1797. EQglish Baptist Home Missionary Society. 

A. D. 1814. Baptist Irish Society. 

A. D. 1816. Baptist Highland Mission.' 

A. D. 1816. Society for Aged or Infirm Baptist Ministers. 

A. D. 1824. Baptist Building Fund— London. 

A. D. 1841. Baptist Tract Society— London. 

A. D. 1845. Southern Baptist Convention (Home Missions 
and Bible). 

A. D. 1850. American Bible Union. 

A. D. 1853. American Baptist Historical Society. 

In the Foreign Mission Department we have — 

A. D. 1792. Baptist Missionary Society — London. 

A. I). 1814. American Baptist Missionary Union, former- 
ly the '' Baptist General Convention." 

A. D. 1816. General Baptist Missionary Society— London. 

A. D. 1843. American Baptist Free Mission Society. 

A. D. 1845. Southern Baptist Convention (Foreign Mis- 
sions). 

In supporting these institutions we are enabled, by the 
blessing of God, to expend at least seven hundred and fifty 
thousand dollars annually, besides sustaining extensive edu- 
cational operations, and defraying all the expenses connected 
with public worship and the maintenance of the christian 
miaistry. 



EEY. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : I am be- 
fore you this morning feeling better than ever. That was an 
unfortunate mistake my brother Hardy made about Bunyan. 
I will sour him on that. He says, Bunyan is an Old Bap- 
tist. Is he ? Well, I would like to know what these brother 
Methodists and Campbellites prove their communion by, if it 
is not by Bunyan. Why, Bunyan was a Free Will Baptist; 
and a man who does not know that knows nothing about 
history. I repeat, his attempt to prove that Bunyan was an 
Old Baptist was an unfortunate mistake. Our people have 
had to fight Bunyan all the time on account of his free com- 
munion doctrine, as also Robert Hall. Everybody knows 
they are the fathers of free communion; and yet Mr. Hardy 
claims Bunyan as an Old Baptist. I should think he would 
be tired of quoting from Bunyan, a Free Will Baptist. 

There are just a few things I want to notice in Mr. Hardy^s 
remarks. The first is as to these articles of faith, that he has 
been harping upon, about the Spirit being coextensive with 
the gospel. I suppose, from what he says, that the gospel 
can go somewhere the Spirit cannot go; I suppose, he will 
say, then, that the gospel is coextensive with the Spirit. If 
he will say that the gospel can go where the Spirit of God 
cannot go, I will take issue with him. I tell you that the 
Spirit is not dependent alone on the gospel, because God can 
use every means for his children. But, really, I don't sup- 
pose Mr. Hardy knows what coextensive means. I know 



230 DEBATE ON 

that in one sense it means equal, but, in another, it means 
something else. He says that I said he could not show his 
denomination beyond the year 1832. Now, I said he could 
not, as a separate body j and you c^annot show it. You were 
united with us, and never had a separate organization until 
1832, except one little church, I believe, in 1825, but in 1832 
you commenced, and with the exception of a little prosperity 
up to 1845, you have been going down ever since, and in 
twenty four years you will be dead. You would have been 
dead long ago if it were not for the converts you make from 
the Methodists and Presbyterians ; you don't give them credit 
for that. 

As to means, the Baptists have never believed in means, 
he says. First, he made sport of means, and afterwards I 
made him admit that they believed in means, and again he 
makes fun of it. Now, brother Hardy, I want to know of 
you whether you have any article of faith that reads like 
this: ''As God hath ax)pointed the elect unto glory, so he 
hath by the eternal and most free purpose of his will foreor- 
dained all the means thereunto." I will venture to say that 
he cannot find an article among them that reads that way. 
That is in the third article of faith of the Philadelphia Baptists. 
And here is the fifth: " Man having brought himself under 
the curse of the law by his fall, it pleased the Lord to reveal 
the covenant- of grace, wherein he freely offereth unto sin- 
ners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them 
faith." 

Now, Mr. Hardy's doctrine is that he does not require any- 
thing; that is what they preach, that God does not require 
anything. Yet here are the articles of faith of the Philadel- 
phia Association, which they say they have not changed. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 231 

InTow, yoa may search your denomination through and 
through, and you cannot find an article like the one I have 
quoted. But I told you yesterday that a man who says he 
has never changed, means that he is too perfect to change, 
or that he is too ignorant. We are all imperfect, and when 
an honest man sees he is wrong he will change to what he 
conceives to be right. 

I proceed with the quotation from this fifth article : " Re- 
quiring of them faith in him that they might be saved ; and 
promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto 
eternal life his Holy Spirit to make them willing and able to 
believe." Again, in the seventh clause : '' He doth certainly 
and effectually apply and communicate the samej making 
intercession for them, uniting them to himself by his Spirit j- 
revealing unto them, in and by the. word, the mystery of 
salvation; persuading them to believe and obey." Yet these 
people deny that the Spirit of God evei* persuades; they 
deny that on all occasions, and every man before me knows 
they do. Here it is here that the Spirit of God persuades the 
sinner to believe and obey. That was the doctrine of these 
Philadelphia Baptists ; an association that was a missionary 
body, that never had a church in it that knew of antimis- 
sionism. There never was a church that split on that in 
Pennsylvania. And yet Mr. Hardy claims connection with 
these old Philadelphia Baptists and claims that they have 
their articles of faith, while here we see they have changed 
them time and again. I say if Mr. Hardy will show such an 
article of faith as this in his denomination I will quit right 
here. He cannot do it. It is like his claim that they had a 
majority in the Little Eiver Association; they said they 



232 DEBATE ON 

could prove it, biit they have not done it, nor will they. 
They never had a thousand in their association in their lives. 

Xow, the thirteenth clause of the articles of the Philadel- 
phia Association reads : 

" The grace of faith whereby the elect are enabled to be- 
lieve to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of 
Christ in their hearts and is ordinarily wrought by the 
ministry of the word." 

Kow, mark the language, "is ordinarily wrought by the 
ministry of the word." The Spirit of God accompanies the 
gospel, and it is through these means, said these old Bap- 
tists, that the elect are led to believe in Jesus Christ. Yet 
Mr. Hardy and his people say that the gospel has nothing to 
do with the salvation of the sinner. No, they say, they were 
saved from the foundation of the world and the gospel has 
nothing to do with them. 

I am now through with articles of faith. Let me refer 
back to Bunyan. By the way, I am anxious to see that 
remark of Mr. Hardy's in print in the report of this debate. 
He says Bunyan was a smart man. Well, that is true. But 
any man that knows anything knows that Bunyan was a 
Free Will Baptist. 

Mr. Hardy had something more to say' about predestina- 
tion. I told him I was a pedestinarian. I predestined to 
raise my flag-pole and throw my flag to the breeze, and to 
have ' Victory ! ' inscribed on it. Why, Mr. Hardy, I am a 
better predestinarian than you are. I say God predestined 
the gospel as a means of salvation. You don't go that far. 
I predestined that in this discussion I would give you a good 
warming. Predestination is to determine before. God did 
predestine from all eternity to save the believer, and God 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 233 

predestined to damn the unbeliever, and, consequently, the 
human family to-day stands under the curse of unbeliefr 
Kow, I have done with predestination. 

Now, to return to the questions 1 submitted to brother 
Hardy on Monday morning, and not one of which he an- 
swered, nor attempted to answer, from the fact, as I said 
before, that some of them he could not answer, and some 
were diametrically opposed to his doctrine. He never even 
claimed that they were not pertinent questions; if he had 
said they were irrelevant to the discussion there might have 
been some excuse for objection on his part. 

Well, yesterday I took up and answered some of these 
questions myself. I was on protracted meetings yesterday, 
and I told the brethren that we would see what good old 
protracted meetings we used to have when we were united in 
one church. 

History of Kehukee Baptist Association, page 137 : '^ A 
glorious revival took place in the past year according to ex- 
pectation ; and the letters from the churches say that eight 
hundred and seventy-two were added to the churches by 
baptism since the last ; and blessed be God, the work was 
going on." Bear in mind this was when we were united. 

Page 143 : " As early as the year 1778 a revival was 
greatly de^ed, and a fast was proclaimed to humble our- 
selves before the Lord, and to solicit the throne of grace for 
a revival. In 1785, at Shoulders Hill, another fast was pro- 
claimed. The same year, at an Association at Kehukee, it 
was agreed to set apart some time between sunset and dark 
every day, for all the churches to unite together in prayer, 
and earnestly pray for a revival. And in 1794, the Associa- 
tion agreed to appoint the Saturday before the fourth Sun- 



234 DEBATE ON 

day in every month, a day for prayer meetings throughout 
the churches ; whereon all the members of the respective 
churches were requested to meet at their meeting-houses, or 
places of worship, and then for each of them, so far as time 
would admit, to make earnest prayer and supplication to Al- 
mighty God for a revival of religion." 

Page 145 : '' The word preached was attended with such a 
divine power that at some meetings two or three hundred 
would be in floods of tears, and many crying out loudly, 
What sMIl we do to he saved ? " 

Here is what the Baptists did anciently, and that was in 
the Kehukee Association, which is now an antimlssion body. 
We see from this that that same people in those days set 
apart a particular time for prayer to God for a revival ; and 
God heard these prayers. God has demanded that the 
church should pray, that they might send forth laborers 
because the harvest is already ripe — because the harvest of 
sinners is ripe to-day, and are dying for want of the bread of 
life. But Mr. Hardy stands up against us, opposing our 
missionary operations. He cannot forget, though, that when 
we were united in one church that we had some of the most 
glorious revivals that were ever known or heard of, but after 
awhile Mr. Hardy and his people got so cold hearted that 
they could not stand revivals. I tell you sinners don't like 
a hot place, and men with little religion cannot stand the 
good old sisters' shouting, and consequently they went off" 
to themselves, and continued their cold hearted preaching, 
opposing revivals, and to-day they stand in opposition to it 
and are fighting us. That was not the case when we were 
joined together, and when we had revivals. Then God 
blessed the word spoken and there was no jealousy. We did 



I 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 235 

not care whose labors were blessed the most, so that sinners 
were saved. We had harmony then, and in our revivals we 
could see sometimes two and three hundred people coming 
up for prayer, and crying out loudly, What shall ice do to he 
saved ? Did you ever see such a thing as that in an anti- 
mission church ? Did you ever hear of sinners coming up 
by the hundreds to their meetings and asking to be prayed 
for, and crying out. What shall tee do to he saved f That was 
the case when we were united in harmony, but they went off 
on this Two-Seedism business, and they failed to warn the 
sinners and exhort the believers, and so they are fading from 
existence. I ask pardon of the congregation for getting so 
warm ; this is the warm speaking of a healthy revival meet- 
ing. Brother Watkins asked me to come up to his revival 
meeting, and I will go if he does not back out. But I don't 
believe he would, for I believe he would enjoy it as much as 
anybody in the world. But, brother, watch out, you might 
get flummixed. 

Elder Watkins — Don't you fear me. 

Mr. Wallace — I mean to watch out for your brethren ; they 
might turn you over if you got too happy. 

Kehukee Baptist Association, page 147 : '• Another thing 
was observed, old christians were so revived they were all on 
fire." I tell you this is the religion of Jesus Christ — this 
setting of the soul on fire, " to see their neighbors, their 
neighbors' children and their own families so much engaged. 
Their souls seemed melted down in love and their strength 
renewed like the eagWs. Many backsliders who had been 
runaways for many years, returned weeping home. The 
ministers seemed all united in love, and no strife nor conten- 
tion among them, and all appeared to be engaged to carry on 



236 DEBATE ON 

the work, and did not seem to care whose labors were most 
blessed, so the work went on ; and none of them seemed 
desirous to take the glory of it to themselves, which ought 
carefully to be observed." 

Ko, sir ; so God blessed the people, that was all we wanted, 
and that is all we want now. We have men among us of the 
highest and the lowest order, but we care nothing about it, 
so God blesses their labors. 

" God is a jealous God, and will not suffer any of his crea- 
tures to take the glory of Ms work to themselves. We hope 
that no person will ascribe the glory of the work to any per- 
son or persons whatever but to the Lord alone. The work 
increasing, many were converted, and they began to join the 
churches. In some churches where they had not received a 
member by baptism for a year or two, would now frequently 
receive, at almost every conference meeting, several mem- 
bers. Sometimes twelve, fourteen, eighteen, twenty, and 
twenty-four at several times in one day. Twenty-two and 
twenty-four were baptized several times at Flat Swamp, 
Cashie, Parker's meeting house. Fishing Creek, Falls of Tar 
Eiver, &c. Some of the churches in the revival received 
nearly two hundred members each. In four churches lying 
between Eoanoke and Meherrin Rivers, in Bertie, Northamp- 
ton and Hertford Counties, were baptized in two years about 
six hundred members, and blessed be God, the work seems 
yet progressing. The work has engaged the attention of all 
sorts of people, rich, poor, and all ranks. Many very re- 
spectable persons in character and office have been called in 
in this revival. There are a few churches within the bounds 
of the association that have not as yet experienced a revival, 
but we hope for them. According to tbe accounts returned 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 237 

to the two last associations, fifteen hundred have been added 
to the churches by baptism in the Kehukee Association." 

In one year ! Fifteen hundred added to the church ! How 
many have you now, brother Hardy ! I have examined your 
minutes in Still Creek for the past several years ; sometimes 
you have lost, and sometimes gained. Last year you gained 
twenty-one, I think 5 but you stand to-day as you did ten 
years ago, four hundred and six members. 

But, brethren, there is so much of this I cannot take time 
to read it. Here in Benedict I have about a hundred pages 
in regard to glorious revivals in those days that I cannot 
touch on. Indeed, brethren, I have as much as two hundred 
pages of history that pertains to the points in this discussion 
that I will not have time to touch on. I wish I had, and was 
sure that you could patiently listen to it, but I cannot do it 
in five days. 

History Kehukee Association, page 202, speaking of Elder 
Burkitt : " His church seemed very glad to see him return, 
and soon after a gracious revival took place again in this 
church. The congregation increased. Evening meetings 
again were appointed, and more used to attend them than 
used to attend Sunday meetings before. The word preached 
was usually attended with a blessing. The hearts of the peo- 
ple seemed opened. A fast was proclaimed by the church, 
and the Lord heard the prayers of his church. And com- 
monly, when a revival takes place in a church, the people of 
God are made greatly to desire it previous to its commence- 
ment. The youth appeared to be the first imprest with a re- 
ligious concern. Seldom a meeting after the revival took 
place but what some offered for membership — four, five, six; 
and as many as eleven have been baptized at a time. In 



238 DEBATE ON 

about two years as many as one hundred and fifty have been 
baptized." 

I will just read a little more on page 209 of this book: 
*' Sometimes ten, twelve, fifteen, twenty, and tiventy-tico at 
one time. ,Thus the work began and increased ; and the Lord 
magnifies the riches of his free grace in carrying on his work 
by simple means." TouknowMr. Hardy denies means. "He 
is a sovereign agent ; he can and does work when and where 
he pleases, and by strong means, weak means, or no means." 
That is what the Missionary Baptists preach today, weak 
means, strong means, or no means at all. We do not limit 
God's power. God can bless people anywhere j and I tell 
you to-day, if you never had an antimission preacher among 
you, you would never have had an antimission member. 
Don't you know that your denomination to-day owes its ex- 
istence to the preachers? And if it was not for them you 
would have no doctrine. That is how it came up. If your 
ministers had not led you off from the Eegular Baptist 
Church, you would never have been split off from us. 

Well, Mr. Beebe was one of your leading men, and he made 
the statement that there never was a missionary tract, or 
missionary society in 1811. Mr. Long was another of the 
leaders of that order, and Dr. Parker, one of the most noto- 
rious Two-Seeders, was their main man, and I will show you 
that he preached as they preach now, and he made a great 
many people believe that he was divinely inspired. They do 
not preach that now, but they go up into their pulpits and 
they say, " O, my mind is as blank as a piece of paper," and 
ask God to fill their minds. 1 believe in an immutable God; 
I believe in a God that cannot lie, and that when he puts 
anything into the mind it is the truth. If I did not belie'^e 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 23^ 

that I would burn the Bible and quit this discussion. I 
would not be here today defending the principles of Chris- 
tianity; because I believe God divinely inspired the ancients 
to speak the words of divine truth; and, consequently, there 
are diversified opinions. Sectarianism arises not from the 
Bible, but from the errors of a few men. It is not because 
the Bible is not true, but because we do not understand it 
alike with our human minds. 



ELDER HARDY SAID: 



Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : It seems^ 
impossible to get my brother to agree with me, for when I 
quote from his own histories, he will positively deny the truth 
of the statements of his own brethren. You will remember I 
quoted from Benedict where he said that Bunyan was an Old 
Baptist, and that that was the reason that he placed him at 
the head of the list, i^ow Mr. Wallace says that he was not. 
It is for him and Benedict to decide as to that matter; and, 
so far as I am concerned, I have no other fight to make 
about it. 

So far as these articles of faith are concerned, there has 
never been an article of faith produced here but what sets 
forth the doctrine of election and predestination, that God 
chose his peoplie in Christ before the foundation of the world,, 
and that God saves these people, and nobody else, that he 
redeemed them, and nobody else. Now I want this congre- 
gation to observe a little further. You remember that Mr. 



24:0 DEBATE ON] 

Wallace said that he could prove that I garbled a quotation. 
If I do not x^rove before this speech is done that he has been 
guilty of that, I will agree to admit that I have been worsted 
in this discussion. He told us yesterday that there were 
none of the Old Baptists in Europe. I propose to prove to 
you here to-day that he made that assertion down in Living- 
ston County, and he impressed it on the minds of the people, 
that there were no Old Baptists in England corresponding to 
the Eegular Baptists here. I say that Mr. Wallace quoted 
himself, I suppose that he did not notice it, but he quoted a 
passage on the day before yesterday that proved that there 
were Baptists of our order in Europe. And I will show you 
the truth of that statement. I did not sit behind him with 
my ears stopped. 

Hitchcock, page 1117: " In England there are ' Particular 
Baptists' (Calvinistic), two thousand and twenty-three 
churches, two hundred and nine thousand seven hundred 
and seventy-three members."' 

When he quoted from this paragraph in Hitchcock on yes- 
terday and skipped this important i)oint, he thought I was 
paying no attention to it probably, but Mr. Wallace has per- 
haps found out by this time that I have as quick an ear for 
the garbling of quotations by others as he affects to have 
himself. Mr. Wallace went so far as to say that if I could 
prove tTiat there were any of these Baptists in Europe that 
he would quit this discussion. It seems to me after the 
vicious attack that he has made on 'Coffey and Beebe in 
charging them with garbling ever since this discussion com- 
menced, that he ought to have been more careful in that re- 
spect himself. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 241 

Mr. Wallace— I say emphatically, Mr. Hardy, that I have 
not done it. 

Mr. Hardy — Well, we will leave that to the people. 

Mr. Wallace — Jast one moment, if you please. Garbling a 
quotation is reading and not stopping where there is a com- 
ma, or anything of the kind. I do not want to be bothered 
with anything of that kind. IsTor have I since this discussion 
commenced. I^ow, brother Hardy has accused me of doing 
this intentionally. I deny it. When a man begins to read a 
quotation, he is not expected to read everything in connec- 
tion with it. I say I have not garbled anything. 

Mr. Hardy — Well, now, did not just this same thing arise 
yesterday in regard to myself^ Did not I make a quotatiopi 
here and commence at the beginning, and having stopped at 
a proper place, Mr. Wallace got up and made the accusation 
against me that I had garbled the author. Mr. Wallace has 
made the statement that there were none of our order in 
Europe, yet here I show from Hitchcock, at a point where 
Mr. Wallace could easily have found the contrary to his 
statement, that there are Particular Baptists (Oalvinistic), 
two thousand and twenty-three churches, two hundred and 
nine thousand seven hundred and seventy-three members, 
&c. Is it possible that Mr. Wallace with this book before 
him, at this identical place, failed to see this, and had he 
seen it when he declared to this congregation that there was 
not a Regular Baptist in Europe? Now, for God's sake, Mr. 
Wallace, let brother Coffey alone. 

Next, Mr. Wallace claims that the Philadelphia Baptist 
Association was a Missionary body. I admit that they after- 
ward went off into Missionism, but I assert that they were 
16 



242 DEBATE ON 

DOt a missionary body from the first ; and Mr. Wallace, nor 
any other man, can prove that it was. The first missionary 
society was organized among them, says Mr. Benedict, in 
1802 ; and he tells us they would have sent out a missionary 
at that time, but that they did not have a suitable man. I 
have quoted already in regard to this, but I will read again 
to show what that people believed in 1775, and then I will 
proceed to show what they afterward got to be. 

Minutes Philadelphia Association, page 150 : " When all 
the human race, by the sin of the first man, were involved in 
guilt, Eom. V. 12, and fallen under condemnation, and all 
became the children of wrath ; it would manifestly be doing 
them no injustice, if they were, to every individual, left in 
that state, and eternally punished for their sins ; this would 
have been their proper desert, their just reward. But God 
out of his mere free grace and love, without any moving 
cause in the party chosen, hath predestinated some unto life, 
through a mediator, Eph. i. Ij Eom. xi. 5, 6, (without any 
wrong done to others), together with all the means sub- 
servient to this end, viz., their redemption by the blood of 
Christ, and renovation by the Spirit of holiness, to the praise 
of the glorious grace ; the other left to act in sin, to their 
final destruction, to the glory of divine justice, Eom. ix. 
22, 23." 

On page 128 of the same book we find a passage showing 
when these people formed their missionary societies. I see 
that previous to that time there was never any missionary 
society or Sunday school among them ; and I defy Mr. Wal- 
lace to find where there was any Sunday school spoken of in 
these minutes from 1707 to 1807 with the exception of a few. 
Here in 1802 we find that they formed a missionary society. 



CHUUCH IDENTITY. 243 

It was at that time that they evidently went off into mission- 
ism. Let me read : '' We will mention but one missionary 
principle more, namely, That the means by which, instru- 
mentally, the great work is to be effected, is the ministration 
of the divine word. 

" We would not be understood as this is supposing that 
this is the only means. Whenever salvation goeth forth as 
a lamp that burneth, it will be in answer to the prayers of 
Ziou, and as it extends, private christians will, in their sev- 
eral circles, be instructors : ' Every man shall teach his 
neighbor and every man his brother until all shall know the 
Lord.'" 

I want to know if these people stand on the Bible ground 
to-day. I want you to notice the departure that they have 
made. We see tnat just previous to this time that they 
believed in no such thing as is put down here. Mr. Wallace, 
however, may say that that was merely the notion of one 
man, but if he will observe he will find that this is contained 
in a circular letter written by the association in 1806, and 
they positively declare here, in opposition to the word of 
God, that '' every man shall teach his neighbor and every 
man his brother until all shall know the Lord." They pre- 
tend here to quote the new covenant 5 they are attempting to 
impress the people with the belief that they are quoting 
something from the Bible. The new covenant says that you 
shall not teach every man his neighbor, but here they declare 
another thing. God says, '' I will make a new covenant 
with the house of Judah 5 " not the same covenant, but '' a 
new coveaant will I make with the house of Israel." And 
here is the covenant made with his people, and the Mission- 
ary Baptists cannot overturn it. They cannot make it mean 



'244 DEB Vie on 

anytkiug else but what it says. Jesus Christ says that you 
shall not teach every mau his neighbor and every man his 
brother, for the reason, he says, that they all shall know me. 
What " all " is that ? It is the " all " that Bunyan speaks of. 
It is the church of the living God. 

Mr. Wallace has had a great deal to say during this dis- 
cussion about antimissionism. I say that we have never 
denied the charge of antimissionism, but I ask him, Where 
do we get that name ? Let Mr. Benedict tell. He says it 
was given to us by our opponents (see page 935), and that is 
where many other charges that we are lying under to-day 
come from — our enemies. 

Dr. G. E. Graves, in a communication, which is his own 
confession, has admitted nearly everything that I have 
accused these Missionary Baptists of. He has admitted 
that they gave gone off into error. He has admitted that 
by these wonderful revivals they have attracted many into 
the church unregenerated. He says the like was never 
known among the Baptists before these things came into 
existence. But what do we see now ? We see that he just 
acknowledges that they have departed one hundred years 
from the doctrine of Christ our Savior. 

I shall now read to you something concerning the General 
Association of Kentucky Baptists. In the constitution of 
that association the first article is : 

'' Article I. This body shall be called the General 
Association of Kentucky Baptists. 

" Art. II. The payment of thirty dollars constitutes a life 
membership." 

Kow, brethren, if any of us should want a life member- 
ship in this association it can be had for the sum of 



CHURCH IDENTITY. ' 245 

thirty dollars. There is not an individual here but knows 
that such a thing as this is a departure from the original 
principles of the Baptists. There is not a single individual, I 
will venture to say, within the sound of my voice, but knows 
that it is so. If we have not thirty dollars, that misfortune 
can be remedied, it wonld seem, from what follows, for here 
is what it says : '' Annual members may take seats upon the 
payment of one dollar. Churches and associations auxiliary 
to this body, by contributing to its objects annually, are en- 
titled to representation. 

"Art. III. It shall be the duty of every member to obtain 
leave of absence before leaving the Association, and the Sec- 
retary shall give no certificate of membership to a member 
who has not this leave, or who does not remain until the 
adjournment of the meeting. 

"Art. IV. The business of this body shall be to promote 
State missions; also the Home and Foreign mission work 
under the Boards of the Southern Baptist Convention; also 
Bible and Book Colportage, Sunday Schools, and Literary 
and Theological Seminaries in the State, and to collect and 
preserve our denominational history of Kentucky. 

"Art. Y. This body shall exercise no ecclesiastical au- 
thority. 

"Art. YJ. This b(5dy shall, on meeting annually, elect by 
private ballot a Moderator, two Assistant Moderators, and a 
Secretary and Assistant Secretary, whose duties shall be such 
as custom imposes upon their respective offices. They shall 
hold their offices until superseded by successors. 

"Art. YII. At each annual meeting the body shall ap- 
point an Executive Board consisting of fifteen, members (five 
of whom shall constitute a quorum) to conduct its business 



246 DEBATE ON 

during the intervals between its annual meetings. They may 
appoint a Treasurer, a Corresponding Secretary, an Agent 
or Agents, and Missionaries and Evangelists j shall fix and 
pay their salaries ; and report their doings annually to this 
body. They shall be competent to fill vacancies in the 
Board.*' 

Kow, just a little in regard to these salaries that were 
fixed. On page 13 is the following under the head, '' The 
Total Work Performed by the General Association and Aux- 
iliary Bodies. Employed twenty-six missionaries, who 
preached about three thousand sermons, organized nine 
churches, fifteen Sabbath Schools, and had one thousand 
and nine members added to the churches. We raised for the 
support of these missionaries thirteen thousand six hundred 
and seventy-one dollars and ninety-two cents." 

I want to ask this intelligent congregation (for I stand be- 
fore you to-day and say as an honest man, before God, I do 
not want anything but the truth), was any such thing as this 
ever known among the ancient Baptists? I say we do not 
believe in such as this, and the old Baptists did not; and 
consequently we stand on their doctrine. We have not de- 
parted from the original landmark upon which the Baptists 
anciently stood. I have been reading histories concerning 
these things for several years, and I have never yet seen any- 
thing like this, where the admission into an association of 
Baptists was dependent upon the payment of one dollar cash 
in hand. I have never seen where a Baptist could become a 
life member of any association on the payment of the sum of 
thirty dollars. I want to show these Missionary Baptists 
their inconsistency here. I want to show them what they 
are doing, for I am sure they have not considered this thing.' 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 247 

I know, very well that the people in these days and times are 
led altogether too much by their teachers, and do not look 
and think enough for themselves. Brother Smith up here 
asserted publicly that the Missionaries had such things 
among them, and they gave him the lie, and he had to prove 
it conclusively before they would acknowledge it. Many of 
these Missionary Baptists are in the dark as lo these things j 
they do not know to-day what is the doctrine of their denom- 
ination, but they depend entirely on their preachers. Well, 
as to this association you can become a life member for thirty 
dollars. But supi)ose after having paid that sum of money 
a member should turn out to be an immoral man or woman, 
a drunkard, or guilty of any great wickedness, what are they 
going to do with him? He has certainly paid his money and 
is a life member of the association; after having been ad- 
mitted for life can they throw him out? 



EEY, ME. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am 
before you again on demand. The first thing I must notice, 
and I am sorry to do it, is this matter of garbling. I have 
not said anything about it to-day, and I don't think there 
was any necessity for Mr. Hardy referring to it again. He 
denies my charge, but the brethren here will remember how 
I put it under his nose. In the first place, he quotes from 
Hitchcock's Analysis to show that there were Eegular Bap- 
tists in Europe. He claims these that are named here as 



248 DEBATE ON 

Eegular Baptists, these Calvinistic Baptists. Kow, we wili 
see about that. 

Bay's History, page 31 : "'The year 1689 was a distin- 
guished epoch in the history of the English Baptists, on ac- 
count of the General Assembly, which then convened in Lon- 
don and published a confession of faith, which was long a 
standard work among them. This assembly was composed 
of delegates from upward of a hundred [one hundred and 
seven] congregations, from different parts of England and 
Wales. They met September 3d, and continued in session 
nine daysj a narrative of their proceedings was published 
soon after.' One item of business transacted in this body is 
recorded thus: 'At this convention the denomination, among 
other things, resolved to raise a fund for missionary pur- 
poses, and to assist feeble churches; also for the purpose of 
ministerial education.' " 

Here are Regular Baptists, and Mr. Hardy says that they 
are the same people, and that he believes as they did. Now, 
brethren, what have you to say to that? Did these people 
ever have a theological institution? No, sir. Mr. Hardy 
has been harping a great deal on this matter of general con- 
ventions, and saying that such things were not known among 
the ancient Baptists. We will see if I can disprove that. 
What I have just read as taking place was in the year 1689,. 
hundreds of years before these people had any existence. 

I turn to Benedict, page 35 : ''Nothing was more remark- 
able about the early Waldenses than their missionary spirit^ 
and the same thing is true of all the people of that age and 
character. It was by sending out missionaries two by two 
on foot to visit their brethren dispersed in France, in the 
north of Spain, Flanders, Croatia, Dalmatia and Italy, that 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 249* 

they kept alive the little piety that existed in the world at 
that day. These missionaries knew where to find their breth- 
ren; they went to their houses, held little meetings, admin- , 
istered the ordinances, ordained deacons, and sustained the 
faith and hopes of the persecuted and tempted ones. It is 
said that these missionaries would go at periods from Cologne 
to Florence, and stay every night at the houses of their breth- 
ren. It is on account of the great number of missionaries 
which these little and poor churches in the valleys sustained, 
that we read of there being sometimes one hundred and 
forty or fifty ministers at the meetings of their synods." 

What is a synod ? Why, it is a general convention ; and 
here we see the Waldenses having general conventions long 
before the Reformation, and long before my brother was born 
or ever thoughrt of. 

" ' It is also remarkable that almost all the men whom God 
raised up from time to time in France and other countries, for 
more than six hundred years before the Reformation, seem 
to have had more or less to do with the Waldenses, such as 
Peter Waldo, Peter Burls, Henry of Toulouse, and Lollard,, 
who labored with so much zeal to diffuse the truth in Eng- 
land, and who was burned at Cologne. 

" ' But not only did the preachers go out from the valleys 
to proclaim the glorious gospel, but humble and pious ped- 
dlers, itinerating merchants, of whom there were many in the 
middle ages, scattered the truth by carrying some leaves of 
the Word of Life, of some MSS. tracts beneath their mer- 
chandise, which they engaged those whom they found favor> 
ably disposed to receive and read.' " 

O, these tracts ! tracts ! is the cry, Mr. Hardy. Xever 
such a thing was knwon among the Baptists, says Mr^ 



250* DEBATE ON 

Beebe, until the year 1811, as a tract. Yet here we find 
them being used before the Eeformation. Xot only did min- 
• isters go throughout the country itinerating merchandise, 
but they carried the gospel to the people, and they carried 
some leaves of the Word of Life, or some manuscript tracts, 
that they might know something regarding the plan of salva- 
tion. I think Mr. Hardy had better have left that point 
alone. 

Then see Eay's History, page 32 : " And they raised funds 
for missionary purposes and ministerial education ; therefore 
they were not Antimission Baptists. So these Old English 
and Welsh Baptists were 'Missionary' Baptists." Don't 
you know they never would have raised money for missions 
and for the education of ministers, if they had been Anti- 
mission Baptists ? But Mr. Hardy claims they were Regular 
Baptists, and says that Benedict calls them Old Baptists. I 
say he never called them Old Baptists. Benedict calls them 
nothing but Antimission Baptists. Benedict was a Mission- 
ary Baptist himself, and he calls us Old Baptists, and he 
never calls you anything but Antimission Baptists. 

I still read from Bay : " But again, all admit that the Old 
Welsh Baptists were as true to the cause of Christ as any 
others. Were they Antimission Baptists ? ^o. For several 
centuries the Welsh Baptists had been prevented by cruel 
persecutions from meeting together in large bodies or asso- 
ciations, and carrying out their plans of united efforts in the 
mission work j but as soon as an opportunity was offered, 
they met again in an associational capacity. Davis, in his 
history, gives the following account of the association that 
met at Abergavenny, in 1653, one hundred and seventy-nine 
years before the Hard-Shell secession : ' In the association 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 251 

held at Swansea, 1654, the church at Llantrisaiiit proposed 
to assist the church at Abergavenny, now Llanwenarth, to 
support their minister ; which also they did. From the mes- 
sengers of Llantrisaint, also, the proposal to revive the 
ancient order of things, came the preceding year ; that is to 
encourage and support the missionary cause. Let our breth- 
ren in the New World look and stare at this, especially our 
antimissionary friends ! Be it known unto them that in the 
year 1653, in the Welsh association held at Abergavenny, 
County of Monmouth, South Wales, collections were made, 
when the Welsh church subscribed to raise a fuiid for mis- 
sionary purposes. Their i)lan was, for the messengers of 
every church to mention a certain sum, and to bind them- 
selves to bring that sum with them to the next association. 
For instance : Swansea, five i^ounds ; Llantrisaint, two 
pounds ten shillings ; Cartmathen, two pounds ten shillings. 
No one was compelled to give anything ; neither was any 
messenger ever blamed for making such arrangements, but 
was cheerfully assisted by his brethren to fulfill them.' 

" We have not only found that the early American Bap- 
tists were missionaries, but the English and Welsh Baptists, 
from whom they sprang, were missionaries also. The ancient 
order of things with them teas to encourage and support the 
missionary caiise.^'' 

Here is what these Welsh Baptists said : " reviving the 
ancient order of things," which was missionary works— one 
hundred and seventy-nine years before there was any separa- 
tion between these people and us on the missionary question. 
Don't you see bow Mr. Hardy has been heaping his abuse on 
missionary operations and general conventions since this 
discussion began, without his knowing what he was talking 



252 DEBATE ON 

about? He has asserted that such things were not known 
among the ancient Baptists time and time again. But why 
dwell on this longer? If this discussion be printed, every- 
body will have a chance to see what has been proved, and 
what has not been proved. You must be tired of history; 
and, so far as I am concerned, I will try to get out of it 
to-day. 

Mr. Hardy speaks about the Baptists taking the Bible as 
the only rule and guide, &c. Here you have articles of faith- 
to bind you by. The Missionary Baptists never did that ; 
they take the Bible, and let every association have their own 
articles of faith. But you have articles of faith and " flum- 
mox" your members if they do not come up to them. That 
is your guide ; it is not the Bible, but your articles of faith 
that you adhere to and rely on. 

Brother Hardy, do you practice anything that is not in 
the Bible ? If you say you do not, show me where you have 
any authority for meeting houses j show me where you have 
any authority for preaching at funerals. Logic teaches me 
that if a man breaks one note he ruins the whole harmony ;. 
if you break your arm the whole body is affected. My Bible- 
teaches me that if a man violates the law in one particular^, 
he violates the whole. Such things as I have mentioned are 
not taught in the Bible. Again, where have you any law 
for licensed preachers and religious newspapers? Where 
have you any authority in God's word to translate the Bible ? 
"Where have you any authority for associations ? There is 
no authority in the Bible for any of these things ; and if yon 
practice them, you practice something that is not laid down, 
in the law. 

Mr. Hardy — Well, don't you do it, too ? 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 253 

Mr. Wallace — Yes ; but I am talking to you now. Tou 
'Claim that you do 'nothing but what is in the Bible. There 
is the difference between us. We do not pretend to look to 
the Bible for authority for everything we do. Have you any 
authority in the Bible for riding in buggies or riding on cars 
or steamboats ? Why, you are so primitive that it is a great 
wonder to me that you don't travel as Jesus Christ did into 
Jerusalem — on the back of a long-eared animal. The Scrip- 
tare nowhere forbids me to counterfeit money, still nobody 
claims it is right to do that. The Scripture nowhere forbids 
me to frequent gambling-houses ; but does it folio w»that there 
is any justification for doing that? We are not specifically 
commanded anywhere to punish counterfeiters ; but is it not 
right and proper that they should be punished ? And so on. 
How many thousands and thousands of things might be 
enumerated of that kind that the Scriptures are not specific 
apon, but which we know are right or wrong. Where is 
there anything in God's word teaching you that it is right to 
sit up with the sick and dying ? Is there anything specific 
for that in God's word ? Yet he says it is not right. As I 
say, there are thousands and thousands of things that might 
be enumerated here that God's divine truth is not specific on, 
bat which we know are right, and things are commanded 
that we shall not do that we know is a proper command. It 
is impossible, indeed, that the word of God could be specific 
on everything. The first five chapters of the Bible give us 
a compendium of two thousand years. Can everything be 
formulated that takes place in such a length of time as that ? 
Certainly not. The Bible is simply an epitome of what is 
.right, and from that epitome deductions are to be drawn, and 
thousands of things are deduced from it ; for, if everything 



254 DEBATE ON 

were specified, as the Apostle- said, the world itself would not 
contain the books. It is nonsense to talk about such things. 

My friends, the time is near at hand for me to leave his- 
tory and go to the Bible. I do not think I will sufter from 
Mr. Hardy's quotations from history any more. There must 
be something brought up that I cannot stand before I will 
trouble myself with his quotations again. 

^ow, I will sum up. I have made the charge that they 
preached salvation by grace and damnation by the decree of 
God. Mr. Hardy has not attempted to disprove that much, 
and it stands now against him as proved. I have shown 
you the position of these people on Bible societies and the 
work of missionaries and in the support of orphans. He Ims 
never attempted to answer any of these things. They are 
undertaking to-day to prescribe a man's conscience. If one 
of them should give a dollar for any of those benevolent pur- 
poses he would be turned out of the church. 

I will relate an anecdote about an old gentleman, who had 
two sons. It appears that the old gentleman took too much 
toddy and they turned him out of the church on account of 
it. Well, the young man having the terrible example of his 
father before him went and joined the temperance society, 
and they took him up and turned him out of the church for 
that. The other son of the old gentleman, having thought 
over the matter, went to the church and said, *' You have 
put my father out of church for drinking too much, and you 
have put my brother out for not drinking at all. Now, I 
would just like to know how much I must drink to remain in 
fellowship." 



ELDEE HAEDY SAID: 

.[Afternoon Session — Prayer by Elder Perkins.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am 
again before you to pursue my argument in my own way. 
My brother has come up with his arguments to try to prove 
that the Baptists away back there did something that they 
(the Missionaries) are now doing. Mr. Wallace intimated 
that he could not see how a man could be illiterate and yet 
be a smart man. Bunyan was not a learned man; but I 
understand that there are a great many men in the world 
that are smart and sensible men who have no education at 
all, so far as that is concerned. A great many of the Bap- 
tists anciently were illiterate and unlearned men. There 
were some of the Apostles, according to the Bible, that were 
unlearned men; but that fact did not prevent them from 
knowing Jesus. I do not understand from the Bible that we 
can be taught Jesus by schools, that we can be taught Jesus 
by theological schools or any other kind of schools. I under- 
stand, in the first place, that we have to be taught by the 
Spirit of God. The Bible informs me that '• the natural man 
receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God ; for they are 
foolishness unto him. Xeither can he know them, because 
they are spiritually discerned." And if a man is educated, 
that does not enable him to explain the Spirit of eternal truth 
while he is destitute of the Spirit of God. He may under- 
stand about it, but as far as the spirituality is concerned, the 
Bible says he cannot understand it. Let me read to yos as 



256 DEBATE ON 

to that. Acts iv. 13 : '' Now when they saw the boldness of 
Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and 
ignorant men, they marveled ; and they took knowledge of 
them, that they had been with Jesus." We see here that it 
is stated distinctly that the people took knowledge that these 
men were ignorant and unlearned simply from the fact that 
they had been with Jesus, and that they had been taught the 
truth as it was in Jesus. Notwithstanding that they were 
considered ignorant and illiterate men as far as worldly wis- 
dom was concerned, they could preach and understand the 
wisdom of the Son of God in all its purity. Does not the 
Bible say that " not many wise and not many noble are 
called, but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to 
confound the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of 
the world to confound the things which are mighty, and to 
bring to naught things that arel" It makes no difference 
how ignorant the Old Baptists may be, it is only showing 
that we stand where the Waldenses and the ancient Baptists 
stood. I admit that the Eegular Baptists as a general thing 
are uneducated people; but, while I admit this, I believe 
that we have men among us that are as learned as any peo- 
ple anywhere. We have men among us that are educated 
and that could translate the Bible if they wanted toj but we 
do not want any translation of the Bible. This Bible is good 
enough for us ; and when we hear people talking about this 
Bible being wrong, and saying to people that we need a new 
translation, just let me know what they need. It is not the 
Bible, but the people that need translating from darkness 
into light by the power and influence of God ; and if they 
were translated they would understand better the Bible that 
we have. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 257 

Mr. Wallace has brought out a lot more of questions for 
me. He wanted to know, for instance, whether the Bible 
authorized us to build meeting houses. He wanted to know 
whether the Bible warned us against gambling houses, and 
counterfeiting money. He wanted to know whether the Bible 
authorized associations. These have nothing at all to do 
with religious matters. Let me tell you where he got this. 
I could have read these questions myself as well as he. Here 
is the Baptist Banner, and in this newspaper there is a long 
rigmarole of questions, just as Mr. Wallace has got them off 
here. What was he doing then ? He was trying to prove 
that he and his people were Old Baptists. He tries to prove 
that they are Old Baptists ; and when he quoted this paper, 
I thought if I was a Missionary, and believed their doctrines, 
that after reading this I would turn over and be an Old Bap- 
tist, because if they could have done better than this they 
would have done it. It is the poorest argument that I ever 
heard of. It is enough to convince anybody that they are 
wrong. 

Mr. Wallace has repeated the statement that we Old Bap- 
tists turn out our members for giving their money to support 
benevolent institutions. I know that Old Baptists have given 
their money for these things, and given it with pleasure, and 
there is not an Old Baptist here to-day that ever heard of a 
member being turned out of church for doing it. He referred 
to Benedict before to show that we turned members out of 
church for joining secret organizations. We do do that, and 
more than that, the Bible authorizes us to do it. If the 
church of Christ is not enough, I don't know what is. We 
believe that when we join the church, that is above every- 
17 



258 DEBATE ON 

thing. We believe that the church of Christ is enough 5 and 
I tell you, if the people of God would leave everything else 
but his word, and stick to it, they would be nearer the truth 
than they are, and there would be no necessity for secret 
organizations of any kind. 

Then there has been a great deal said about the Baptists 
being whiskey drinkers. They have been accused of being 
*' whiskey Baptists'' all their lives. I understand from the 
Bible that the disciples on a certain occasion were accused of 
being drunk. You will remember that on the day of Pente- 
cost, when Peter preached, he was accused of being drunk 
with wine. Peter said, We are not so drunk as you arej and 
I might say to-day with equal propriety and force, that the 
Old Baptists do not get as drunk now as those people who 
give us this name. But why speak of it ? It is a burlesque 
on the name of Old Baptists ; they have had to suffer an 
accusation of this kind, just as the Apostles did. So far as 
I am personally concerned, I have this to say, that in the 
portion of Kentucky where I live there are certainly no 
drunkards among the Baptists. If there are any, I certainly 
don't know it. I know, too, if the Baptists in any part of 
the country practice whiskey drinking, they are doing wrong, 
and ought not to be allowed to remain in the church. My 
brother Wallace's anecdote about the old man who was put 
out of the church for drinking too much, and his son meet- 
ing the same fate for not drinking at all, doubtless has a point 
to it 5 but if that point is that members are put out of our 
church for not drinking anything, it has been altogether lost. 
Por the information of some of my brethren ^ I will say that 
1 don't drink whiskey at all, and that that is a fact well 
known : and yet I am in the church,, and am here indorsed in 



h 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 259 

this discussion as the mouthpiece of the Eegular Baptist de- 
nominatioD. 

Then Mr. Wallace comes on again with his little tracts, 
asserting that they are a great means in the salvation of 
sinners. Well, if that is so — if Sunday schools and tracts, 
as has been said, are the greatest ordained means in the 
salvation of sinners, tell me how sinners were saved before 
these means were known. So far as I can find there is but 
one plan of sal\^tion mentioned in the Bible, and that plan 
is certainly not tracts and Sunday schools. Mr. Wallace 
made 'a quotation from Eay on this point. Xow, Mr. Eay, 
in what he said, may be tilling the truth and he may not be. 
He has told some things that were not true, and I have 
proved it ; but I want to know if these people away back in 
those days had organizations such as Mr. Wallace speaks of 
and supported such missions as he mentions, whether the 
organizations and the supporting of them were fixed uj) for 
that purpose. This people know that I have shown where 
the first missionary society was organized among the Bap- 
tists, and it is not worth while to make any further quota- 
tions on that subject. However, before I get through here I 
intend to show where the first Sunday school was organized, 
and I will show you the Baptists never had a Sunday school 
previous to that time. I will show you what they did and 
what they proposed to dt>. These missionaries now-a-days 
pretend to ase these Sunday schools as a means of the sal- 
vation of sinners, and they tell us that God will save sinners 
if the sinners will only let him. I say that this is not God's 
plan. Mr. Wallace has told this people a great deal about 
what our doctrine is during this discussion. He has told 
some things that we do believe, but he has told other things 



260 DEBATE ON 

that we certainly do Dot believe. I hear the Missionry 
Baptists preach nearly as ofteu as he hears the Old Baptists 
preach. I cannot hear them very often, for nearly every 
Sunday I have an appointment to preach myself. I used, 
however, to hear them frequently, and I know something 
about what they preach. I know of their " protracted meet- 
ings " and their " mourners' benches." The Missionaries 
down in my country had a protracted meeting and a great 
many mourners. According to their way of preaching a man 
may come up to the mourners' bench at one meeting, but 
before anoth'er comes around he may be in hell. l:^ow^ I am 
more generous than these people are, and say that every 
man that has mourned on account of sin will be saved in 
salvation. I take the position that every man and woman 
that has mourned on account of their sins will be saved. 
And why '1 Because the Bible teaches it. I understand the 
cause of a man's mourning because of his sins is the work of 
God, and we are told in the Bible that where God begins a 
good work, he will perform it. But the Bible does not teach 
us that it is the man himself that commences the good work. 
It is God that commences the work, and every work he does 
is good, because God is perfect. My brother Wallace seems 
to think they do not preach the conditional plan of salvation. 
If they do not preach the conditional plan of salvation, I 
have greatly misunderstood thenij for don't they tell the 
people sometimes that they have a work to dq, and they 
must perform it in order to their eternal salvation ? I know 
that they get down and pray and call on the Lord, and they 
will tell the sinner that he is helpless and there is nothing 
that he can do; that he is dependent on the Lord Jesus 
Christ, but before they get through they tell him there is a 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 261 

work for him to do in order to his salvation. I understand 
this to be conditional. All of you people here know that 
these Missionary Baptists preach in that way. Let me tell 
you a little anecdote. I think I ought to have the privilege 
of telling it, as I have not told one since this discussion began, 
leaving that field entirely open to my brother. I heard a 
Missionary Baptist once preach, and he told the congrega- 
tion, in the first place, that the sinner was dead, that the 
sinner was helpless, that the sinner was entirely without 
strength ; but before he got through he found a work for 
the sinner to do, and told him to go and do it — that he must 
do it ; that his salvation depended upon it. Well, there was 
an Indian present that heard the preacher's remark, and he 
saw the inconsistency in the system, and after the preaching 
was over the speaker asked him how he liked the sermon. 
<^Well," says he, "I will answer your question by telling 
of an incident that I heard once. I heard once of a boat float- 
ing down the river with three persons in it, and one of these 
persons was totally blind, the second had no arms, and the 
third was naked. Well, the man that was blind said, I see a 
gold watch in the bottom of the river, and the one without 
arms reached down and picked up the watch and gave it to 
the one that was naked, and he put it into his pocket." It 
seems to me that such an occurrence as that was entirely 
impossible. And so what I understand by a conditional plan, 
of salvation is that something has to be performed on our 
part ', and if we have anything to do for our own salvation, 
that must be performed, or else there can be no salvation, 
and in that case our salvation would depend entirely upoa 
our own acts. 
I take the position that salvation is entirely unconditional 5, 



262 DEBATE ON 

that there is nothing whatever to be performed on the part of 
the sinner in his eternal salvation. Then, says one, you 
believe it is by grace alone. I answer. Yes ; that is what I 
believe ; and, as I remarked before, I believe that every- 
thing that is necessary to the eternal salvation of the sinner 
is the gift of God. I believe my brother Wallace admitted 
here yesterday that faith and repentance are the gift of God, 
and then in the same speech he said that he exhorted the 
sinner to exercise repentance. !N'ow, I want to know if a 
man can exercise a thing that he has not got. Supj)ose old 
brother Fulkerson should come to my house, and that while 
there dinner time was to come on, and I was to go to him 
and say, " Brother Fulkerson, eat dinner with me." Sup- 
pose he should say, '^ You have got no dinner, brother 
Hardy," and I should say, " Well, it makes no difference, 
eat dinner with me anyhow." Brother Fulkerson would 
naturally reply, ^' I can't eat dinner, since I have no dinner." 
Would not that be the most nonsensical of all things, and is 
it not the same to tell a man to do a thing that he cannot 
possibly do ? Is it not equally nonsensical to tell a sinner to 
exercise faith and repentance, when faith and repentance are 
the gifts of God— gifts that he has not received ? But Mr. 
Wallace professes to teach Bible repentance, x^ow, I tell 
this people Jesus is an exalted Prince -, and when he gives 
repentance, the sinner will repent. That is what I believe, 
and that is our doctrine. I know our doctrine is frequently 
misrepresented. I learned from one of the brethren that 
there was a paper called the BajDtist Watchman sent down 
here in Ballard County, and a lady, who was then a Mission- 
ary Baptist, got hold of it, and found where it set forth the 
doctrine of the Eegular Baptists. Xo doubt she had never 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 263 

lieard their doctrine preached, and she commenced reading 
the doctrine that we believed, and spoke of it, and people 
that were then believers in that doctrine became convinced 
from her conversation that they were in the wrong position, 
and they came out and joined the Regular Baptists. They 
were members of a Missionary Church, and I think brother 
Browder baptized eighteen or nineteen at that time. 

Mr. Wallace has compared tracts and such papers with re- 
ligious papers. There is no comparison. If a man wants to 
publish a paper it is his own business and nobody else's. 
The Regular Baptists have no objection to that, but they do 
not have, in order to kee^) themselves up, to organize mis- 
sionary and tract societies, Bible societies, and so on. I 
quoted from Mr. Cramp and showed you when these things 
began, that nearly all of them have commenced since the 
year 1800. I will right here read a little from a circular con- 
tained in the minutes of the Big Saline Association of 1867. 

'^An Address to the ClmrcJi of Big Saline Association — Bear 
Brethren : — I have long been convinced of the fact that we as 
an association, and the churches, are not doing as much for 
the cause of God, and the extension of the gospel of Christ, 
as we might do — not as much as we can do. There are small 
differences of opinion among us, (though we agree in the 
main,) relative to the mode of procedure, or plan of opera- 
tions. It is not, if I understand it, whether we tvill do, but 
Jiow we will best labor in the cause of our Master in our 
bounds. Brethren, while disagreed, and disputing as to the 
right way that we should work, we are standing still, and 
souls are perishing all around us." 

I will now read a little here from what is called the Bap- 
tist Teacher that was put out by the Missionary Society in 



264 DEBATE ON 

1880. It states here that they may have the Holy Spirit 
come to them by just asking for it. If their having the Holy 
Spirit depended upon their asking for it, tell me if there is 
any condition there. It seems to me so. If they get the 
Holy Spirit by asking for it, the reception of it is clearly con- 
ditional. How such a system as this can be set up and at 
the same time be claimed to be unconditional, I cannot see. 
But it seems to me that I have proved beyond doubt the 
contradictions here, and that the Baptists have believed in 
an unconditional plan from the very beginning of the setting 
np of the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Apostles 
were sent to preach the gospel of the Son of God. I believe 
that they were sent on a mission, but not through the in- 
strumentality of any missionary board or anything of that 
kind. They were sent, but they were sent by Jesus Christ, 
and I tell you that Jesus Christ calls and sends out preachers 
to-day. My impression is that when Jesus Christ calls a man 
he needs must go, and I don't believe there is money enough 
in the world to bribe one of God's preachers not to preach. 
[The Moderators here announced that the speaker's time had expired.} 



EEY. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : I am still 
mending. I am sorry to have had so much cold hash, but I 
cannot help it; I will try to warm it up for you. I wish to 
speak of one statement Mr. Hardy made in his speech before 
dinner. I would not do it, if it were not for the request of 
my brethren. I refer to Mr. Hardy's remarks about general 
associations, his statement that he never had any. Now, I 
have shown, I think, to the satisfaction of every intelligent 
man here, that such associations were in existence among the 
Baptists years ago, and really I don't think there is any use 
of going into it again. But I will notice one thing. He lays 
great emphasis on the matter of a life membership being had 
for thirty dollars, or one dollar a year. Now, does Mr. Hardy 
i;now that that general association is a missionary body 
among Baptists? I don't believe he knows anything about 
missionary bodies. His prejudices are such that they will 
not suffer him to investigate them. Tell me how any organ- 
ized body can do anything without means. Why, Mr. Hardy, 
you cannot print the minutes of your association without 
means. Now, an association can join the general associa- 
tion if she wants to, and she need not come in at all if she 
does not want to, and if she wants to she can come five hun- 
dred times if she pleases, and if she pays one dollar she can 
remain or leave as she sees fit. It is just like a church; it is 
an independent body. She is not obliged to join the associa- 
tion ; she is at liberty to do as she pleases in that respect. 



266 DEBATE ON 

Well, then, my brother says that his people are the primi- 
tive Baptists because they are unlearned. He says the 
Apostles were unlearned. Where did you learn that, brother 
Hardy? Certainly not in the Bible. He professes to believe 
it, because Peter and John on one occasion were called un- 
learned. Who called them unlearned ? Were they unlearned? 
Did the Apostles have no education? We find them writing 
epistles in the Greek language, and anybody who knows any- 
thing knows that Peter and John were not Greeks, and that 
that was not their mother tongue. Were Peter and John ig- 
norant when they had scholarship enough to write epistles in 
the Greek language? Why, we learn that they had been 
under theological teachers for years. Christ called his dis- 
ciples around him and instructed them for three years before 
he sent them to the ministry, and he was the best theological 
teacher that ever visited us, and I assure you, too, he was 
not an Antimission Baptist, for if he had been he would not 
have left and gone into foreign lands. There would have 
been no use of his going down and preaching to the heathea. 

Means! means! means! Atone moment Mr. Hardy be- 
lieves in means, and in the next, he does not believe in 
means. He heard a man preach once, and it reminded him 
of something about one man without eyes, another without 
arms, and another naked, and there was a watch that went 
the rounds. Here is a sinner that cannot repent, and yet he 
says a sinner does repent. This is logic for you. He says 
the sinners cannot do anything, and yet he says the sinner 
does something. But such things are not worth taking up 
time with. 

I want to get to the Bible. Mr. Hardy says I love Watson 
better than the Bible. Aye, Mr. Hardy, Watson was slaying 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 267 

you, calling you innovators, because you did not preach re- 
pentance. Then Mr. Hardy said he preached to all the peo- 
ple j and again he disclaimed it, and says it is no use to 
preach to the sinner because he is dead, and he is not a sub- 
ject of gospel address. And, let me tell you, that is the doc- 
trine of his people preached throughout this land and coun- 
try, that damnation is by the decree of God. If this is not 
true, he has had plenty of opportunities to deny it, for I made 
that charge last Monday. I tried to get him to tell me the 
difference between the expressions, God sends his rain on 
the just and the unjust, and that Christ died for the just and 
the unjust. Every man knows that when it is said God 
sends his rain on the just and the unjust, it means that he 
sends it on the whole human race. If it is not so, let Mr. 
Hardy explain it to this people. Why does not Mr. Hardy 
come up and show the diiierencel 1:^0 w, so far as the people 
among the ancient Baptists being unconditional believers is 
concerned, Benedict says he could find out from history 
which preponderated, but he says, at the same time, there 
was no such strife about it as to cause a division. The first 
man that ever raised this question was Augustine, a Eomish 
priest. It was out of the Eomish Church that this question 
first came, and I will prove that statement if it is called in 
question. I say it was never known among the Baptists 
until this Eomish j)riest raised it, and so far as your vitu- 
perations are concerned, it is a Eomish monk that you revive 
to-day. I do not want to have anything more to say about 
history ; but if this statement is called in question, I will 
prove it, as I have said. Benedict says when the people's 
hearts are warmed with the love of God they do not contin- 
ually dwell on these things, but they look for the salvation 



i 



268 DEBATE ON 

of the sinner, and that is the duty of every man who is a 
true minister of the gospel. And election is God's work. 
Let him attend to his own work. Election is the chosen 
work of God; he made choice of every believer from eternity 
in his own divine mind; his foreknowledge comprehended 
the end from the beginning. Consequently he can look down 
the vista of time and see these things. And while Paul was 
dwelling on these things, he knew the Scriptures foreordained 
that God would justify unto salvation by faith, which was 
preached before the gospel to Abraham, saying. In thy seed 
shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. He was not an 
Antimission Baptist, because he preached the doctrine of the 
Missionary Baptists. And Mr. Hardy speaks of the present 
translation of the Bible ; he asserts that this translation is 
good enough for him. If this translation is true, why don't 
you sprinkle or pour, for every man knows baptism means to 
sprinkle or pour ? I see some of their brethren winking as 
if they thought they could turn me down on that. I will 
bring down the dictionary then and we will see what Web- 
ster says, for he is the acknowledged authority on the Eng- 
lish language. The word in the original does not mean that; 
and for that reason the Baptists of old protested against this 
translation, and if Mr. Hardy and his people were the old 
Baptists they would protest against it to-day. 

Kow, as regards the first worshipers. I remarked this 
morning that the first five chapters of the Bible give us a 
chronology including about two thousand years. Any man 
that can read at all can read these five chapters in twenty- 
five minutes. Of course it was impossible for everything that 
was spoken by Jehovah to the federal head to have been 
expressed here. It is, and only was intended to be, -a com- 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 269 

pendiiiin. It tells something of the fall of man from the state 
in which God placed him. It tells something of man being 
driven out of the garden of Eden for his transgressions. A 
man was not placed under the law of necessity, as my brother 
Hardy teaches time and time again in his unconditional 
theory. If they had been placed under the law of necessity, 
they could not have helped doing anything except what they 
did do, and, consequently, would not have been responsible 
for it. I will give my brother a little logic on that point. 
We karn from the Bible that the wicked must be punished. 
God is the punisher. If God is the punisher, the punish- 
ment must be just, because God is just. If the punishment 
is just, man is guilty; and if man is guilty, he could have 
acted otherwise; and if he could have acted otherwise, he 
sinned of his own free will. If anybody can refute that, I 
promise to quit right here. 

For disobedience man was thrown out of the garden of 
Eden, and it was said that cherubim were placed at the east 
of the garden, to prevent him from partaking of the tree of 
life forever. That is what they say, but where does it say 
that? Let us notice what it does say. "And the Lord God 
said. Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good 
and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also 
of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: therefore the 
Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the 
ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the 
man : and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden cher- 
ubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep 
the way of the tree of life." 

What is the way ? The word " way " here is used in a 
nominal sense. Here now is tUe type of Jesus Christ. • What 



270 DEBATE ON 

does the antitype say ? " I am the way." That is the very 
language. Here were augels placed there, which were the 
cherubims of the Lord, and the flaming sword heie means 
God cutting in every direction. Here were the angels placed 
to keep the devil from blocking up the way, and the angels 
have ever rejoiced in the grand scheme of redemption ; the 
angels never were used to keep away salvation. They are 
ministering spirits to assist man, in order that he anight be- 
come a subject of eternal glory. Xow, while this is true, we 
find in the Scriptures that there are conditions. Eevelation 
ii. 7: "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree 
of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God," and 
man is to have sweet communion with the Savior in heaven. 
And we find when the first worshipers came that they offered 
their sacrifices ; and consequently there can be no doubt that 
there was given to them a ceremonial law, although it is not 
given in the Bible. We learn that Cain and Abel offered a 
sacrifice. If there never had been any commandment of God 
respecting this, how would Abel or his children have known 
anything about it? We find how Abel came with his offer- 
ing, and it was accepted j but when Cain came with his offer- 
ing of vegetables and fruits, God refused his sacrifice, and 
Cain was wroth, and we are told he purposed murdering his 
brother. And God said, Why is it? Said the Lord unto 
him, "If thou doest well, shaltthou not be accepted? and if 
thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." This is the teach- 
ing of God's divine word ; and I tell you now, that nothing 
will ever damn a sinner but unbelief. I tell you God never 
made the sinner a liar 5 God never made him a robber. Man 
makes himself these things. God made man good j but he 
said that if he violated the divine law he is threatened that 



CHUEOH IDENTITY. 271 

he •will damn him forerer. Man was made a rational crea- 
ture, and God promised that if he did well, it would be well 
with him ; but if he did ill, sin lieth at the door. It was not 
meant to terrify the sinner, but every promise of God must 
be fulfilled. I tell you, my friends, you are all accountable 
beings before God 5 and, I repeat, unless you repent of your 
sins you can never go to heaven. God's divine word to all 
men is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be 
saved. Then how can brother Hardy and his people tell the 
sinner that he must do nothing, that God will save him in his 
own appointed time, and if his decree has gone forth against 
him, his flaming sword will cut him down ? Tell me, can a 
man be saved without repentance ? 

Mr. Hardy has said that I was afraid of the Bible, but I 
will show him whether I am afraid of it or not. I will give 
you more of the Bible than he ever had in his head, if you 
will only listen. 

"My Spirit shall not always strive with man." This, says 
Mr. Hardy, is Noah's spirit 5 that is the doctrine of these 
people. Does not any man know that when the Bible's di- 
vine truth says, "My Spirit shall not always strive with man,'"' 
that it implies that there is a time when he will not strive ? 
If I were to say that Smith is a truthful man, I would have 
an idea ; but if every other man in the world was a truthful 
man, my language would be without meaning. When I say 
that Smith is a truthful man, I imply that there are other 
men who are not truthful ; and any man who understands 
anything of logic will comprehend that. 

Here is Moses addressing those who had followed him (Deut. 
iv. 25), "When thou shalt beget children, and children's 
children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and 



212 DEBATE ON 

shall corrupt yourselves, aud made a graven image, or the 
likeness of anything, and shall do evil in the sight of the 
Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger ; I call heaven and 
earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon 
utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan 
to possess it ; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but 
shall utterly be destroyed. Aud the Lord shall scatter you 
among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among 
the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you. And there ye 
shall serve gods, the works of men's hands, wood and stone, 
which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. But if from 
thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find 
him, if thou seek him with all thy heart, and with all thy 
soul." Mr. Hardy says that the sinner cannot seek God, 
that he is dead, when God says distinctly that if the 
sinner will seek him with all his heart he shall be saved. 
Mr. Hardy preaches that when God's time comes, he will 
come to the sinner, without the sinner seeking him. I object 
to that doctrine. So far as the unconditional part of Mr. 
Hardy's doctrine is concerned, I believe in certain uncon- 
ditional matters as well as anybody. I will show the uncon- 
ditional part that I believe in. I don't believe that man had 
anything to do in the making of the world. Man had 
nothing to do in bringing himself here. I don't believe man 
had anything to do in invoking atonement for himself; and 
so far as the atonement being made, that was unconditfonal ; 
I am not here to take issue on that.^ But suppose there are 
two men in jail, both doomed to die for the crime of murder. 
Suppose they are lying there helpless, unable to get out by 
their own power. Suppose that they had both denied upon 
^heir trial that they were guilty of the crime charged. Then 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 273 

the Governor of the State, of his own grace, says to them, 
<' If you will confess your crime I will release both of you." 
" Well," says one of the murderers, " I will do it, for I am 
guilty ; I know I am a murderer." He is released. What 
releases that prisoner ? Was it not grace ? Of course it 
was the grace of the only man that had the power to pardon 
him. Grace is a favor, and the grace of God is but the 
favor of God. And this act of grace of the Governor's, of 
course was unconditional so far as the prisoner invoking it 
was concerned. The Governor merely said that if he would 
acknowledge his guilt he would be released. Then take 
the other prisoner : he says, " I cannot admit ray guilt, be- 
bause I am not guilty ; " and the doors are locked upon him. 
Does the Governor lock the door upen that murderer, or does 
he lock it upon himself ? The same grace has been offered 
to both, both being equally guilty. The one accepts and 
the other refuses it, and denies that he has been guilty of the 
crime charged. The one accepts the grace, and is released j 
the other refuses it, and is left to die. God does not shut 
the door on the sinner ; the sinner shuts it on himself. 

The Moderator tells me that my time has expired, but I 
will speak more on that point after awhile. 
18 



ELDEE HAEDY SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : Mr. 
Wallace has concluded his speech, and it is for you to decide 
whether he has touched on the subject involved in this dis- 
cussion or not. I don^t think he has, but I will notice a few 
things he has stated. He says, for instance, that God will 
attend to his own work. That is what I have been telling this 
people for a long time, and that is what I want this people 
to understand now — God will attend to his own work. What 
is God's work ? It seems very strange to me that we cannot 
draw a line of distinction between what God has commanded 
us to do and what he says he will do himself. Must we not 
be governed by the Bible in regard to these things ? So far 
as producing much more history on the subject under discus- 
sion here, I have to say that I care nothing about it. It 
seems to me very clear that I have proved everything that 
it is necessary for me to prove j however, I intend to prove a 
little more before I am done here. The question arises, 
What is God's work? Mr. Wallace quotes to show that it 
is the work of God that we believe on him. Well, if it is the 
work of God, it is not the work of the sinner that we should 
believe. The Bible says that it is the work of God that we 
believe on him ; that is exactly my doctrine. 

Mr. Wallace undertook to show that the angels were sent 
to guard the sinner. I suppose he thought it would not suit 
his system to make the whole quotation. " The angel that 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 275 

was sent forth,"— What for ? Why the Bible says, " To min- 
ister to them who should be heirs of salvation." 

Then Mr. Wallace comes in on the spirit question, and 
brother Worlds, or some other Old Baptist, says that this 
Spirit brought to view here did not mean the Spirit of God, 
but that it was the spirit of Moses. It says, " My Spirit 
shall not always strive with man." ]S"ow, let us see if Mr. 
Wallace's system agrees with the language of the Bible. 
Did not he tell the people that the Spirit of God shall not 
always strive with man, and after a wile it takes its flight ? 
But this is the text he quotes. It says that " My Spirit shall 
not always strive with man." Why ? Because he is also 
flesh, and his days shall be one hundred and twenty years, 
and when his days are out he dies. And the reason that the 
Spirit will not strive always is because the man won't live 
always. I don't think my brother has made much on the 
spirit question. 

I propose to notice the Sunday School institution this even- 
ing. This people know there are Sunday Schools all over 
this country, and some persons would have you believe that 
the Bible is taught in these schools. Further than that, 
they would have you believe that that institution has been 
in existence among the Baptists from the days of the Apos- 
tles up to the present time. I think I have shown the origin 
of many institutions that are kept up by people in this por- 
tion of the country to-day. I have shown you the date of 
the organization of the first missionary system as well as 
many other institutions, and now I will call your attention to 
this institution of Sunday Schools. I wish to show you the 
organization of the first Sunday School, and show you what 
that institution is being used for in the present age, what 



276 DEBATE ON 

the ioteution is in holding up the Sunday School, in practic- 
ing such a thing in the churches. 

Belcher (page 998) speaks of the first Sunday School that 
ever was organized that we have any account of. He tells 
us that it was organized by Eobert Eaikes, in the year 1781. 
It is scarcely necessary for me to read this long account of 
it. I will merely say that it shows that Eobert Eaikes in 
the year 1781 was led to organize a Sunday School in his na- 
tive city, Gloucester, England, by observing a large number 
of children wandering through the streets, whose parents, it 
would seem, were too poor to send them to school. It would 
appear that Eaikes sympathized with these children, and 
that he hired a room and teachers, to the latter of which he 
paid twenty-four cents a day for teaching these children. I 
have no objection in the world to children being taught to 
read and to write, and so on, and it is a very laudable object 
in any man to teach children in such circumstances, or to 
have them taught; but that is not the Sunday School of the 
present day. They have brought such institutions within 
the pales of the church, and have used it for the pretended 
salvation of the sinner. 

Mr. Wallace — Mr, Hardy, do you ever send any of your 
children to Sunday School ? 

Mr. Hardy — I will merely say that my children go to Sun- 
day School, but I do not send them. My children are at 
liberty to go to Sunday School if they wish to. But that is 
away from the subject. Such things as these practiced now- 
a-days were unknown among the ancient Baptists. We, as 
Old Baptists, do not practice these things, and the Baptists 
anciently did not practice them. People can have Sunday 
Schools if they want to, so far as 1 am concerned, but the 



CmJKCH IDENTITY. 277 

point that I make is that the Baptists in the olden days did 
not have such things. The first Sunday School in America 
was organized on January the llth, 1791, and the first Sunday 
School in England was organized, we find, in 1781. It must 
be admitted that Baptists were in existence long previous to 
either of these dates. And in that connection I will refer to 
a pamphlet that I have here, which is an account of the first 
national Baptist Sunday School convention, the first national 
convention that these people ever had. 1 will read this in 
order to show you when any of you people go to these Sun- 
day Schools, what you teach and what you are taught, what 
the intention of these institutions is. 

This is an extract from an address of the Eev. A. E. Dick- 
inson, from Virginia: '' Brethren, let me urge you, as I would 
seek to urge myself, to greater earnestness in the work of 
saving little children. I would urge it by all the joys that 
come to us in this world from saving little children." Page 
26: " 1 heard of a Sunday School superintendent that had 
been out looking up little ones and bringing them into the 
Sunday School, where one after another was converted. On© 
day he was sent for to see a little child. The little boy said to 
him, ' I want to thank you, the last thing before I leave this 
world. When I go to heaven, I am going to tell Jesus it was 
you that put me in the way to heaven. It was you who saved 
me; and I am going to lookout for you when you get up 
there. I will meet you, and take you by the hand, and carry 
you to Jesus, and say. Lord Jesus, here is the man that put 
me in the way to heaven.' O, I tell you, that superintendent 
went away with his heart almost bursting with joy at the 
thought of meeting that little fellow up at the pearly gate I 
If we are faithful, if these christain workers, from the North. 



278 DEBATE ON 

and South, and East and West, are faithful in this work, la- 
boring to save the little children, when you get up yonder at 
the shining gate, you will be surprised j for they will come 
from every direction. Every one will want to take you by 
the hand, and they will say, ' Come, I want to carry you to 
Jesus.' They will say, • Lord Jesus, here is the man, and 
here is the woman, that put me in the way to heaven.'" i^ow, 
did the ancient Baptists ever have any such thing as set out 
here ? Did the ancient Baptists ever tolerate such a thing 
as this? Certainly not; and, let me tell you, true Baptists 
to-day will not allow it. These are not the means by which 
sinners are saved at all. Here we are told of one of these 
little cherubs going to heaven and telling Jesus this and 
that, just as though Jesus did not know anything at all about 
it. The question arises right here, Is it our business to teach 
little children respecting the great character of God in this 
manner ? 

I will refer to one of their Sunday School papers, showing 
you what these people teach little children. The caption is, 
" Questions for the Youngest. Little ones, Jesus loves you. 
He died to save you. Ought you not to love him ! Ought 
you not to try to live for him and please him ? If you love 
him, you will. How mean and selfish it is for us to live just 
to please ourselves, and not to please Jesus. If we love him, 
we won't do so. If we love him, we will be new creatures, 
and try to do what will please Jesus all the time. Those 
who do not love God are God's enemies. God is angry with 
them. Jesus came and died to make God and them friends. 
For his sake God is willing to forgive and save them, if they 
will let him. He sends your minister and teacher to tell you 
so. They beg you to be reconciled to God." I do not be- 



li 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 279 

lieve God's ministers ever use any such arguments to chil- 
dren or anybody else. It is not what God's preachers were 
sent to do, to tell them that he would save them if they 
would only let him. Certainly such ideas were never pro- 
mulgated in ancient days. There is nothing in the Bible . 
that authorizes any such thing to be preached. For God's 
sake, brother Wallace, do not talk about the primitive Bap- 
tists teaching little children any such stuff as this. What 
wonder is it if I do not send my children to Sunday School? 
I certainly do not want my children to be taught any such 
nonsense as I find here; and it is just such as this, I have no 
doubt, that is found to-day in the Sunday Schools. For my 
part, I do not want my children to be taught that God made 
them, and after he did make them that they are more power- 
ful than God himself. 

Here is something from one of Mr. Wallace's little tracts 
that he is so enthusiastic about: ''And what kind of books 
shall we select ? Those, and those only, which in their char- 
acter and influence, harmonize ivith the great object of the 
school. To lead the children to Christ, and then to instruct 
them in all the doctrines of the gospel, is the true aim of all 
Sunday School instruction. And no book should ever be ad- 
mitted into the library that is not adapted, in some measure, 
to aid in the attainment of this object. And as the professed 
aim of Baptist Sunday School workers is to lead all the 
scholars first to become christians, and then to become Bap- 
tist christians, it is fitting that they should select for their 
libraries at least some Baptist books; and that they should 
admit none that teach pedobaptism directly or indirectly. 
Such books should no more be tolerated in a Baptist Sunday 
School library, than Pedobaptist sermons would be tolerated 



280 DEBATE ON 

in a Baptist pulpit j tlie latter would not be half so danger- 
ous as the former."' 

The following is from an address delivered at the first 
Baptist Sunday School convention, before referred to : 

" 1. The Sunday School is the moulder of puMic opinion. 

*' 2. It is the conservator of public morals. 

'' In the first place, the Sunday School is the moulder of 
public opinion. 

" Public opinion, in this country at least, is no meaning- 
less thing ; it is a real entity ; you may not be able to meas- 
ure it in yards and feet, you may not be able to give its 
proportions or its weight avoirdupois, but after all, it is a 
tremendous power in the communities in which we live ; it 
affects every relation in the community ; there is nothing 
that pertains to the moral, political, social, or religious as- 
pect of the community which this public opinion does not 
largely control. 

'' The Sunday School may be made, as a moulder of public 
opinion, a tremendous and powerful influence in controlling 
all right motives and securing all good results. You can 
reach, by striking early, the minds of 'those who are to grow 
up and control the next community, morally, politically, and 
financially." 

It is stated here that they may control the next community 
by "striking early," that they may control it morally, 
politically, and financially. It would seem that the benefits 
to be derived from this process of " striking early " is the 
control they may exercise. It has been thrown up to me 
that we are opposed to such things, and that that is the rea- 
son that we are a small community. The process mentioned 
in this extract is the process practiced by the Catholics^ 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 281 

The Catholics have never wanted any more power than is 
stated here; that is, moral, political, -and financial power. 
The Regular Baptists to-day believe in the Bible, and the 
Bible alone, and they have never been opposed to any plan 
that is authorized in the Bible. So far as being opposed 
to the Bible is concerned, I have to say that I have no 
doubt that there is one of them in this assembly to-day 
that has not got a Bible in his or her house. 

I read from the Western Recorder , which is a Missionary 
Baptist paper : " God has promised to work with us, by us 
and through us, and that mightily : and if God works with 
me I can accomplish all things in accordance with his will. 
I speak of this mighty power wrought in us in conversion, 
or, rather, previous to conversion as an offset to that soul- 
destroying clap-trap which makes conversion a human work, 
consisting in memorizing the creed, joining the church, and 
desiring to flee from the wrath to come. If this is conver- 
sion, then I believe Satan himself is converted, for I believe 
he has memorized all our creeds -, that he has dictated some 
of them. I believe that he is trying to join all our churches, 
and I know that he believes and. has confessed that Jesus is 
the Christ, the holy one of God, and he certainly desires to 
flee from the wrath to come. 

" Such ideas of conversion, though prevalent, are never- 
theless degrading, heathenish, and fatal to the interests of 
the sonl. I intend this as an attack on Baptist Sunday 
Schools and Baptist practice 5 for those that are without, God 
judgeth. Baptist Sunday Schools are becoming loose in 
sound doctrines — are departing from the faith. We have 
too many such converts in our churches, and too much of this 
teaching in our Sunday Schools." 



282 DEBATE ON 

This is from the pen of a contributor to the Western 
Eecorder. He says that the devil has memorized their creeds 
— that is, the creeds of the Missionary Baptists ; and more 
than that, the writer gives it as his opinion that the devil 
has dictated some of them. He even goes further than that, 
and says that he believes the devil is trying to join their 
churches. Now, I don't believe the devil is trying to join 
our church, because the devil don't believe our doctrine. 
The devil is emphatically in bitter opposition to our church. 
Here you see that the Missionary Baptists themselves are 
not agreed on these very points that I have spoken of. Here 
is one that I have quoted from that rebels against this Sun- 
day School institution, and I think in a very forcible way. I 
have a few more quotations that I propose to make on this 
subject with a view of showing that these Sunday Schools 
are contrary to the teachings of the divine word of God, and 
I cannot see how any people having such institutions among 
them can claim to stand on the primitive grounds of the Old 
Baptists. I say that any people holding such things in their 
minds are not on the ground that the old Baptists stood on ; 
and I am sure you cannot • make any thinking man believe 
otherwise. I say here before God that this thing of teaching 
little children such things as these is contrary to the teach- 
ing of the divine word of God. I see before me people who 
think for themselves, and in God's name I advise them to 
look to what the Bible directs them to do, and not be guided 
by the clap-trap of false teachers. It seems to me that if the 
people would just take the Bible and be guided.entirely by 
it they would find it sufficient. I say to my brethren now 
that we are opposed to these novel institutions of the Mis- 
sionary Baptists, and we are opposed to them simply because 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 283 

they are not taught in the Bible. We, as a denomination, 
profess to teach nothing but what the Bible teaches and 
authorizes to be taught. 



EEY. MR. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : I have 
been feeling good all the time, but I am a sort of feeling bad 
now. I have been talking here now four days, and am get- 
ting tired. I wish some good sister would bring me a pillow 
to-morrow, so I may lie down and sleep while Mr. Hardy 
talks. 

Says Mr. Hardy, " Tne devil won't try to join our church.' 
Why, Mr. Hardy, he dragged you out of the church and you 
have remained out ; he has been leading you into all manner 
of confusion, and, of course, he is not trying to join you. 
Nobody can dispute that. 

The only thing that I see to notice in Mr. Hardy's last 
speech is in regard to the " spirit " matter, Says he. Of 
course, the Spirit is not going to strive with man after the 
man is dead. ;N'ow, did you ever hear such logic ? Here is 
a people that had brought down the vengeance of high 
heaven on themselves, because of their wickedness, and God 
informs them that he will not let his Spirit strive with them 
auf longer 5 but he tells Noah that he will give him and his 
family one hundred and twenty years, and during that period 
Noah preached to these people and prepared the ark for his 
own safetv. 



284 DEBATE ON 

Then, Mr. Hardy gets off again on the Sunday School 
question. It has always been a strange thing to me that a 
man with reason would want to do better by the stock on his 
farm that has no soul than by his own children. If brother 
Hardy had a promising colt that he wanted to make a fine 
animal out of, what do you suppose he would do ? Does not 
everybody know that he would train that colt ? Of course, 
he would J but he would turn his children loose among all 
the wickedness of the world, instead of allowing them to read 
the word of God. To prevent this was the object of the 
Sunday School at the start, and nothing else. I have no 
doubt that there are errors taught in these Sunday Schools, 
just as I have no doubt, and indeed as I know, that there are 
errors taught in Mr. Hardy's church. I am not here to say 
that there has never been wrong taught in the Sunday 
School. I^ay, further than that, I am not here to say that I 
have never taught that which was wrong from the pulpit. I 
have no doubt that I have been mistaken ; but I know that 
I have always tried to do the very best I could, and if there 
has been any wrong taught by me it was my fault alone. 
The Sunday School ; what a bugaboo it is to him ! Take that 
institution as a whole, and I think I will prove that it is 
right. 

In Deuteronomy iv. 9, we find the following: '' Only take 
heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget 
the things thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from 
thy heart all the days of thy lifej but teach them thy sons 
and thy son's sons: (10) specially the day thou stoodest be- 
fore the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto 
me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them 
hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days 



CHURCH IDENTITY. * 285 

that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach 
their children." 

Yet with this language before him in the Bible, here is a 
man that is opposed to teaching his children in Sunday 
School or anywhere else. He and his people ridicule it, and 
heap their vituperations on this Sunday School institution, 
call it the devil's work, and prohibit their children from going 
to Sunday Schools. They let them follow every wickedness 
on the Sabbath day 5 they may go fishing, and hunting, and 
indulge in all such sports, with the effect of demoralizing 
them. Their children are told, in effect, that they might 
rather go to a horse-race, and, I have no doubt, to the 
gaming house, instead of the house of God. They turn their 
children loose on the Sabbath day to follow any inclination 
they may have, which is generally to their demoralization, 
instead of bringing up their young ones in the fear of God. 
They do all this and go further, they heap their vitupera- 
tions on those that try to lead their children into the paths 
of righteousness, as God's divine word has emphatically com- 
manded. 

If Mr. Hardy and his people expect to set up their primi- 
tiveness because they have no Sunday Schools and are op- 
posed to them, I think they are likely to be very much dis- 
appointed. The main question in regard to this is whether 
it is right according to God's divine word. See Deuteronomy 
xxxi. 11: " When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord 
thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read 
this law before all Israel in their hearing. 

*<(12) Gather the people together, men, and women, and 
children." 

That is God's divine word. Where shall we gather them ? 



286 • DEBATE ON 

Brother Hardy has set his seal of opposition to this gather- 
ing of the children. He opposes it and repudiates it, and^ 
more than that, he heaps his vitui)erations on it, and calls it 
the deviPs work. After that let Mr. Hardy examine God's 
divine word as I have read it here. 

Ezekiel xliv. 23: "And they shall teach my people the dif- - 
ference between the holy and profane, and cause them to dis- 
cern between the unclean and the clean." 

Psalm xxxiv. 1-10: "I will bless the Lord at all times; 
his praise shall continually be in my mouth. 

" (2) My soul shall make her boast in »the Lord ; the hum- 
ble shall hear thereof, and be glad. 

" (3) O magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt his 
name together. 

" (4j I sought the Lord, and he heard me, and delivered 
me from all my fears. 

"(5) They looked unto him, and were frightened; and their 
faces were not ashamed. 

" (6) This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him, and 
saved him out of all his troubles. 

" (7) The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them 
that fear him, and delivereth them. 

" (8) O taste and see that the Lord is good ; blessed is the 
man that trusteth in him. 

" (9) O fear the Lord, ye his saints ; for there is no want 
to those that fear him. 

"(10) The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger; but 
they that seek the Lord shall not want any good thing."' 

Here the psalmist is addressing the sinner. He goes on to 
address the children. " Come, ye children, hearken unto me; 
I will teach you the fear of the Lord." Here is the divine 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 287 

trntb, the commandment, in fact, to train children, and to 
teach them in the fear of the Lord. But no, says Mr. Hard}',, 
go on as you will, little children, and the Lord will call you 
in his own good time. This is no hypothetical assertion, for 
I have heard that very doctrine preached from the pulpit of 
these people. We all know they do not address the ^nner. 
They say the sinner is dead, and not a subject of gospel ad- 
dress. Sunday Schools are almost universalj they are regarded 
by all denominations nearly as organizations for the purpose of 
teaching the youth of the country God's holy word. It is a 
great institution; and it is only these prejudiced people, that 
never visited them, that protest against them, and heap their 
vituperations upon them. The prejudices of these people are 
such that they do not want to know about it ; and it is just 
such prejudices that people imbibe when they know nothing 
at all of a subject. Kow I will leave it. 

Deuteronomy xxx. 15-19 : " (15) See, I have set before thee 
this day life and good, and death and evil : 

" (16) In that I command thee this day to love the Lord 
thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments, 
and his statutes, and his judgments, that thou mayest live 
and multiply : and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the 
land whither thou goest to possess it. 

" (17) But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not 
hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and 
serve them 5 

" (18) I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely 
perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the 
land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 

" (19) I call heaven and e'arth to record this day against 
you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and 



2SS DEBATE ON 

cursing : therefore choose life, that thou and thy seed may 
live." 

This is the word of God. The old prohet calls heaven and 
earth to witness that he had set these things before the chil- 
dren of Israel, and tells them to choose life rather than death. 
But, says Mr. Hardy, you cannot make choice to-day; you 
must remain in sin. Ah, but God's prophets taught a differ- 
ent doctrine. Mr. Hardy, you remember, said that I was 
afraid of the Bible. Well, I have taken a good deal from 
that holy book, and before I close I will make many more 
quotations to prove my position. I will show you from the 
Bible itself that Mr. Hardy does not preach its teachings, 
and that he has made nothing but a total failure of his argu- 
ment since he began here. He has read some articles of faith 
and histories and books, and that has been his entire argu- 
ment. I have laid down propositions that he has failed to 
answer, and I tell you he will never come up to time on them. 
^:.^hese passages of Scripture that I have quoted he has never 
touched, and will not. He will treat them as he did my ques- 
tions. They are diametrically opposed to his doctrine. Fow 
I will pass to another point. 

<' Choose ye this day whom ye will serve." Why the Ar- 
minians are always preaching that. Here is the langauge of 
Joshua (xxiv. 15) : " And if it seem evil unto you to serve the 
Lord, choose ye this day whom ye will serve, whether the 
gods which your fathers served that were on the other side 
of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land ye 
dwell : but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." 
I once heard an Antimission Baptist preach, and say that 
ihis was an Arminian text. This is the word of God. Joshua 
Jiere goes on to tell what the Lord had done for this people; 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 289 

how he had successfully carried thein across the Eed Sea, 
and had driven all the heathen nations before them, and 
now, says Joshua, that God has done all these things for 
you, '^ choose ye this day whom ye will serve." 

*' (16) And the people answered, and said, God forbid that 
we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods. 

*' (17) For the Lord our God, he it is that brought us up, 
and our fathers, out of the land of Egypt, from the house of 
bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and 
preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all 
the people through whom we passed. 

" (18) And the Lord drove out from before us all the peo- 
ple, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land ; therefore 
will we also serve the Lord ; for he is our God. 

^' (19) And Joshua said unto the people. Ye cannot serve 
the Lord ; for he is an holy God, he is a jealous God ; he 
will not forgive your traugressions, nor your sins. 

" (20) If ye forsake the Lord and serve strange gods, then 
he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he 
hath done you good. 

" (21) And the people said unto Joshua, Kay ; but we will 
serve the Lord. 

" (22) And Joshua said unto the people. Ye are witnesses 
against yourselves that ye have chosen you the Lord to 
serve him." 

I never have heard one of Mr. Hardy's people quote the whole 
of this. Then it goes on to speak about how Joshua set up a 
monument as a witness to show that the people had chosen 
life rather than death. Mr. Hardy's people will not preach 
this text because it is opposed to their system. No -, they 
19 



290 DEBATE ON 

cannot preach the whole gospel, as their own brother, Dr. 
Watson, charges them. I have referred to Watson, and 
made that charge on them, and Mr. Hardy has never made 
any attempt to answer it. Of course I do not expect them to 
acknowledge the corn ; but there are here, in this audience, 
Methodists, Presbyterians, and Eeformers, and they can 
judge. These Antimission Baptists are great on bragging 
beforehand. They remind me of an anecdote. I heard once 
about an Irishman, who was going along the road, and hap- 
pening to look over into a field saw a very large bull. 
The Irishman thought it would be mighty funny to take the 
thing by the horns and wipe its nose. The more he thought 
about it, the funnier it got -, and finally he jumped over the 
fence and grasped the bull by the horns. The Irishman was 
thrown over the fence. After he had picked himself up he 
remarked that it was a fine thing that he had had his laugh 
first. And it is so with these Antimission Baptists ; it is a 
very good thing that they have had their brag and their 
laugh first before they tackled me. I tell you I think they 
will let this little Wallace alone hereafter. 

Jeremiah xxix. 12-14. " Then shall ye call upon me, and 
ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. 

<' (13) And ye shall seek me and find me, when ye shall 
search for me with all your heart. 

'' (14) And I will be found of you, saith the Lord ; and I 
will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all 
the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven 
you, saith the Lord 5 and I will bring you again unto the 
place whence I caused you to be carried away captive." 

1st Samuel x. 19 : "And ye have this day rejected your 
God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities, and 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 291 

your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set 
a king over us. Xow, therefore, present yourselves before 
the Lord by your tribes, and by your thousands." 

Just one more quotation, and I will close for the evening. 

Jeremiah xiii. 10: ''This evil people, which refuse to hear 
my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, 
and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship 
them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing." 

Here was a people rejecting God. They refused to wor- 
ship the living God. They speak of reprobation. I will 
show you that it is only those that reject the New Testament 
that are reprobated. I will show you where reprobation 
takes place. I ask the question again, Mr. Hardy, whether 
a portion of God's people were reprobated from eternity. I 
will not touch that question until to-morrow, as I have taken 
up so much time in what I have already said. 

I return my thanks, ladies and gentlemen, for your kind 
and close attention since I have been on my line of defense, 
and hope you will still continue it j and to-morrow I hope 
you will all come up as near to me as you can, for I intend 
to rouse up things then. I will show you protracted meet- 
ings and missionary meetings away back long before Mr. 
Hardy's denomination had any existence. I desire to have 
your full attention. Mr. Hardy has tried to find out some- 
thing from the Baptist Banner, and I just wish to say that I 
consider that I have an equal right to quote from the Bai)tist 
Signs of the Times. 
[The discnssion -was then adjourned until the next day at 10 o'clock, a. m.] 



ELDEE HAEDY SAID: 

[Fifth Day — Morning Session.] 
[Services were opened with prayer by Mr. Fletcher. The rules govern- 
ing the debate were then read by Mr. Moderator Perkins.] 

Gei^tlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am 
again before you to proceed in my usual manner. 

I desire, in the first place, to say a few words in regard to 
this subject of the Sunday Schools. You will, probably, 
remember that at the conclusion of my last speech on yester- 
day evening that I was treating on this subject, and that 
when my brother Wallace followed me he made an effort to 
misrepresent what I had said, and he endeavored to impress 
it on the minds of this people that I was opposed to my 
children going to Sunday School in order to hear the reading 
of the word of God. This is an utter mistake. I am not 
opposed to my children reading, or hearing read, the Bible, 
at any time or place. But, so far as that is concerned, my 
children can read the Bible as well at their own home as in 
any Sunday School, and without running the risk of being 
taught anything that is not in the Bible. I have Bibles 
myself at home in plenty for my children to read j and, so 
far as reading the Bible is concerned, they have every oppor- 
tunity 5 and every man's children who has read the word of 
God in his house have the same opportunity of reading the 
Scriptures at home that they would have in any Sunday 
School. What I object to in Sunday Schools chiefly is the 
teaching of sectarianism, and teaching them that God would 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 295 

save them if they would only let him. So far as I am con- 
cerned, I do not want my children taught in any such 
manner. 

I referred on yesterday to the Acts of the Apostles, iv. 13, 
and I showed you that the statement there was that the 
Apostles that spoke were ignorant and unlearned men. 
Mr. Wallace undertook to dispute that statement in the 
Bible ; he went so far as to say that it was false ; that these 
men were learned men. Mr. Wallace may say himself that 
they were learned men, but the Bible says emphatically that 
they were not. Mr. Wallace has disputed everything that I 
have said in this debate ', he has disputed his own historians 
even, when I would make a point from them ; and now he 
has gone to the extent of disputing the Bible. Again, Mr, 
Wallace has said that infant baptism is taught in the present 
translation of the Bible that we use, and that consequently 
he does not believe it ; and he comes up here and declares 
positively that it is not a true translation. Well, if he denies 
the Bible in part, there is no use in speculating as to how 
much of it he does believe. If Mr. Wallace asserts here that 
a portion of the Bible is wrong, why does not he tell us how 
much of it he believes ? This is Mr. Wallace's position, not- 
withstanding he has been telling us with such emphasis that 
he is going into the Bible. I have got a Bible that contains 
every word that his Bible does, I suppose, unless Mr. Wal- 
lace has a Greek copy here which he understands. He says 
that the English translation of the Bible is wrong. I pre- 
sume that he intends to say that the Greek copy contains 
more or better matter. I suppose that Mr. Wallace has the 
Bible in the original language, because on yesterday he went 
on to use two or three foreign words, that, for my part, I am 



294 DEBATE ON 

willing to admit I did not understand, and therefore I am 
not ready to dispute ; I did not know anything at all about 
them, and he may have given them all right or he may not. 

I refer to Genesis iii. 22-24 : " And the Lord God said, 
Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and 
evil : and now, lest he i)ut forth his hand, and take also of 
the tree of life, and eat, and live forever : 

*' (23) Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the 
garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was 
taken. 

" (24) So he drove out the man ; and he placed at the east 
'of the garden of Eden cherubims, and a flaming sword which 
'turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." 
' What construction does Mr. Wallace put on this language? 
^If 1 understood him aright, it was not to keep the way of 
the tree of life, lest man should reach forth his hand, but he 
thought a way was opened up here by which man could 
reach forth his hand and live forever, and that the object of 
this flaming sword was to keep the devil away, so that man 
could reach forth and partake of eternal life. Well, I do not 
understand it that way, and I do not think any intelligent 
person who reads this text will take such a view of it. 

Mr. Wallace quoted a number of Scripture passages 
in the Old Testament, which J suppose he meant to be a 
Teply to my remarks on the Sunday School institution. If I 
understood Mr. Wallace, he said he was going to prove by 
the Bible that the institution of the Sunday School is right. 
I leave it to this audience to say whether he brought out 
anything that had a tendency in that direction at all. Did 
he find any place in the Bible where it said anything about 
Sunday School? No, sir; nor can he do it. These are 



CHUECH IDENTITY, 295 

things of recent origin. The first of the kind* that was ever 
organized in the known world was in the year 1781 j and Mr. 
Wallace knew very well when he said he intended to prove 
it by the Bible, that he could not show by history the exist- 
ence of Sunday Schools further back than that year. He 
found where men, women, and children assembled together. 
Very well. We are assembled here to-day, but I do not see 
anything in the shape of a Sunday School in that. Then 
what has he done with his quotations from the Old Testa- 
ment ? Has he accomplished his object ? He goes there in 
an effort to prove the correctness of his doctrine. Kow, bear 
in mind that he agreed with me in the outset as to this 
matter of grace. He said he believed as much in grace as I 
did, and that he did not believe in a conditional plan of 
salvation. I have told you all here just how much I believe 
in grace j and if Mr. Wallace believes as much on that point 
as I do, why does not he say what he does believe, or, at any 
rate, state how much of that doctrine he does indorse ? I 
believe that everything pertaining to the salvation of the 
sinner is the gift of God from first to last. There is nothing 
conditional whatever in it. People cannot divide the word 
of truth; it is either true or untrue, and it cannot be divided. 
We cannot mix law and the gospel together, and then under- 
take to preach law for gospel. Mr. Wallace tried to make 
the impression here that when he comes to the Old Testa- 
ment that that is what you are required to be governed by, 
and that by obeying this you will obtain eternal life. 1:^0 w, 
there is one expression that I want you to notice carefully. 
It has been said that if we offend in one point, we are guilty 
of the whole. I take the position here that this law spoken 
of — that is, the old covenant — is not the covenant under 



296 DEBATE ON 

"Which we are at the present. Have not I quoted here, and 
proved to you, that Jesus says that He will make a new 
covenant? '' I will make a new covenant with the house of 
Israel and the house of Judah." And he goes on to say that 
it is not in accordance with the old covenant. If it is not in 
accordance with the old covenant, it certainly must be differ- 
ent from it ;• and if the old covenant was unconditional, the 
new covenant is conditional ; and if the old was conditional,, 
then the new must be unconditional. Now, Mr. Wallace, 
which ground will you take here ? It is very clear that you 
cannot take the position that both covenants were condi- 
tional. So these .quotations that Mr. Wallace has been 
making refer undoubtedly to the house of Israel. We see 
that there were many things required of these people under 
the law, and we are told that if they violated that law, they 
were put to death ; but if they obeyed the law, their land 
was to prosper and bring forth much fruit. Now, this ques- 
tion : If these people disobeyed, did God say they would go 
to hell ? If these people obeyed, did he say they would live 
and go to heaven ? Here it is a case of obey, and live ; dis- 
obey, and die. It is here, and here alone, that Mr. Wallace 
undertakes to prove his system, and he cannot find grounds 
to prove it anywhere else. But if we are guilty in one par- 
ticular, we are guilty of the whole, says he. Well, if that is 
the case, and if that is the only condition under which we 
can be saved, none of us will ever receive salvation ; for there 
is no man but who has broken the law in some particular. 

Exodus XXXV. 2, 3: '' Six days shall work be done, but on 
the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath 
of rest to the Lord : whosoever doeth work therein shall be 
put to death. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 297' 

" (3) Te shall kindle do fire througliout your habitation 
upon the sabbath day." 

Will Mr. Wallace come up here and tell this people whether 
we are under the law to-day ? and if we are, let me ask 
whether if we light a fire on the sabbath day we shall be put 
to death ? Suppose Mr. Wallace should go off on a Sunday 
on an engagement to preach, and when he came back he dis- 
covered that his wife had been kindling fires on the sabbath 
day ; if he were governed by this law would he put his wife 
to death 1 If Mr. Wallace were to undertake to govern him- 
self by this law it would be his christian duty to stone his 
wife to death. It is the merest nonsense, and the Bible 
writers knew better than that. I tell you that the Gentiles 
were never under this law. This law was given to the Jews 
as a nation. They were threatened with damnation for a 
violation of the law, and promised salvation for obedience to 
it. It was with them a matter of life and death ; and, in 
accordance with that, we find where there were whole masses, 
put to death, in consequence of having violated that law. I 
think this enough on that point. 

Mr. Wallace has assured us time and again that he was. 
going to the Bible to prove his position. It is fortunate that 
Mr. Wallace and I are going in the same direction in that 
respect ; for I am going to the Bible, too. But I want ta 
make a few remarks first. My understanding is that in the 
outset, and as has been read here every morning, that in this 
debate I affirm the proposition laid down, namely, that the 
Eegular Baptist is the Church of Christ, and that they have 
come up by regular succession fron^ the days of the Apostles 
to the present time, and that Mr. Wallace denies it. I think 
I have proved that we, as a people, at the present time, 



298 DEBATE ON 

maiutain the practices and doctrines of the ancient Baptists j 
and I am sare Mr. Wallace has failed to disprove it, as I 
understand to have been his part to do if it could be done. 
For I have always understood it was the purpose of the 
negative to follow the affirmative and attempt to disprove 
his arguments. Mr. Wallace has utterly failed, in my opin- 
ion, to do this. You will remember that at the conclusion of 
my first hour speech in the beginning of this debate, after I 
had laid the groundwork of my argument, that in reply to it 
he got up and read off a long list of questions that he had 
written out, and which he demanded that I should answer. 
So far as the questions themselves were concerned, they 
were entirely harmless, but I did not take up any time 
in answering them, because it was not my duty to follow 
Mr, Wallace 5 but, on the contrary, it was his duty to fol- 
low my arguments, and show where I was wrong, or where 
I had failed to prove any statement that I had made. Inci- 
dentally I have answered some of his questions, and it would 
have been quite an easy matter to have answered the rest of 
them if we had had the time and I had felt the disposition to 
do so ; but it would have been useless, for *these questions 
had absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. These 
questions of Mr. Wallace seem to have afforded him a great 
deal of amusement. If it was his intention to use them with 
the purpose to avoid answering my arguments, I suppose 
they have served his purpose to his own satisfaction. To my 
mind he has certainly made no attempt to answer any argu- 
ment I have made. 

:N^ow for the Bible. I am going to take up the Scriptures 
to prove the old doctrine of the Baptists. I shall not depart 
from that point; and if I do, I trust the Moderators will 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 299 

check me. I quote from John iii. 16: "For God so loved 
the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoso- 
ever belie veth in him should not perish, but have everlast- 
ing life." Kow, I know that it seems strange that an Old 
Baptist should quote that text in order to prove his system, 
but I tell you it takes the whole Bible to support any system 
of theology. I want to make a short argument here in re- 
gard to the love of God that is referred to in this quotation. 
It says that God so loved the world, that he gave his only 
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not 
perish. Bear in mind that these Missionary Baptists pre- 
tend to take the Scriptures to prove their doctrine. Let us 
see if it does it. They undertake to prove from the Bible 
that the entire race of man is embraced in the eternal love 
of God. The Bible does prove that position or it does not 
prove it. I would like Mr. Wallace to answer my one ques- 
tion on this point. If the race of man was embraced in the 
eternal love of God, I would like Mr. Wallace to tell me how 
they got out of the eternal love of God ; tell me how any 
portion of the race of man got out of the eternal love of God 
if they were all embraced in it. God is unchangeable — even 
Mr. Wallace has not undertaken to deny that; and when 
God loves us, he loves us forever. What God loves now 
God has loved from the beginning, and will love forever. 
There can be no change, for God is unchangeable; and if all 
the race of man was embraced in his eternal love, and if a 
portion of the race of man sinks down into eternal damna- 
tion, God loves that portion that sinks down to hell; for if 
we take the position that God loves the entire race of man, 
and he is an unchangeable God, he must love that portion of 
the race that is in hell, fo"r God is unchangeable. 



300 DEBATE ON 

I shall make a few remarks now on the subject of redemp- 
tion. Galatians iii. 13: '' Christ hath redeemed us from the 
curse of the law, being made a curse for us." Mr. Wallace, 
tell me, is that the truth ? Tell me, Mr. Wallace, who this 
"us" is? You profess, Mr. Wallace, to be something of a 
grammarian. Then, tell me if the word "us" here refers to 
the entire race of man, or if it refers to a part. There must 
be an intermediate space between part and all ; and if Christ 
has redeemed us from the curse of the law, I want to know 
if we have gotten out from under the sentence of the law. 
If he has redeemed us from under the curse of the law, if 
Christ has satisfied the law, and if we are justified in the eyes 
of the Lord, I want you, Mr. Wallace, to tell me by what law 
any part of the race of man goes to hell. If you take the 
position that Christ has redeemed all of us, you had better 
let the Universalists alone, for that is their very doctrine. 
What is atonement? Answer me, Mr. Wallace, what is 
atonement? You have said that we, as a people, had no 
learned men among us, but, as everybody knows, you gat 
most of your education from one of our men^ and as there is 
no intention of casting a reflection on your intelligence, we 
will let that statement drop, merely sayiBg that we have 
right here a thorough scholar, who understands, as I believe, 
the Greek language. From all the information I have been 
able to get, my understanding of the word "atonement" 
means satisfaction, or, rather, that satisfaction must be ren- 
dered before there can be atonement. Has satisfaction been 
rendered for all the race of men ? If there has been, tell me 
how any portion of us can go to hell. 

Eomans v. 8-10: "But God commendeth his love towards 
us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 301 

" (9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we 
shall be saved from wrath through him. 

" (10) For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to 
Ood by the death of his Son; much more, being reconciled, 
we shall be saved by his life." 

Please notice the words '' much more " here. What is 
meant? Does it mean that ail having been redeemed, some 
will be left to perish 1 IS"o ; that is not the truth of the Bible. 
"Much more then, being justified by his blood, we shall be 
saved." I take the position that everybody justified by the 
blood of Christ alone shall be saved. Is that Old Baptist 
doctrine or not ? 

Mr. Wallace — O, we all know that. 

Mr. Hardy — Then why don't you acknowledge it? 

Mr. Wallace — That is Old Baptist doctrine, I mean. 

Mr. Hardy — I thought you meant to say you all knew it 
was true, and indeed I expect you do. These Missionary 
Baptists take the position that Christ died for all, for the 
entire race of man, in order to give all a chance. Let me 
make a few remarks here. I would like to know if this con- 
gregation believe to day that the Lord Jesus Christ, when he 
suffered, bled and died on the cross, atoned for the sins of 
the entire race of man, so that they might all be saved. How 
long did the world stand before the advent of Christ ! I be- 
lieve that it had stood about four thousand years. If that 
was the case, what became of the people that died previous 
to the coming of Christ ? Will my brother say that they all 
went to heaven ? Will he admit that a portion of this people 
sinks down to eternal destruction, or does he claim that by 
the death of Christ they were all saved ? Mr. Wallace un- 
doubtedly believes that the Bible teaches that a certain por- 



302 DEBATE ON 

tioD of the race of man goes to destruction. Admitting that 
a portion of the race of man before the coming of Christ 
sank down to eternal destruction, tell me if when Christ came, 
and suffered and died on the cross, he redeemed those that 
were already in hell, or gave them a chance for salvation. 
However, I do not think there is any necessity for pursuing 
this subject any further. I know that Mr. Wallace will not 
undertake to answer that, believing as he does, between now 
and next Christmas. 

Matthew i. 21 : "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou 
shalt call his name JESUS : for he shall save his people from 
their sins." What is the angel speaking of here I for as you 
are aware, this is the declaration of the angel that appeared 
to Joseph before the Savior was born. This shows the plan 
of salvation that was in the mind of God before Jesus was 
born into the world. Here the angel appears to Joseph before 
the birth of Christ, and says that she sMU bring forth a son, 
'* and thou slialt call his name JESFS." I do not suppose 
that Mr. Wallace will dispute with me about the first two 
"shalls" here, that Mary shall bring forth si son, and his 
name sliall be called Jesus. But I suppose when he comes to 
the third " shall" — " and he shall save his people" — that will 
be a little to© much for him. Three " shalls" in rotation are 
more than his people can swallow. Bijt we Old Baptists be- 
lieve them all, and we would believe them if there were forty 
right in succession. Mr. Wallace sneers at what he calls the 
ignorance of the Old Baptists. Well, I am glad the Old 
Baptists have no more sense than to believe the Bible. But 
what is the angel talking about when he says that Jesus shall 
save his people ? He does not say if they will use means ; 
It is not if they will that Jesus will save them, but the angel 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 303 

positively declares here that Jesus shall save his people. Let 
us notice this a little further. Bear in mind that the passage 
says that " he shall save his people." Does not that imply 
that there is a people that are not his ? Is the meaning con- 
veyed that all the people are his ? Between these you have 
to take one of the two positions. If a part is his, then there 
must be a part that is not his. If there is a part that is to 
be saved, there is a part that will -not be saved, and nobody 
disputes that there is a part that will not be saved. If Mr. 
Wallace is to consider this passage to mean that all will be 
saved, he might as well at once try to make Universalists out 
of us : and if he acknowledges that, it is time for him to stop 
attacking these Universalists. But God has said that he 
will save his people, and there is not one single solitary con- 
dition attached to it. The angel did not say that Jesus will 
do so and so if we do so and so ; there is nothing of that kind 
at all. I want to call your attention particularly to that fact. 
I read on yesterday, and showed you the new covenant, where 
it says that you shall not teach every man his brother and 
every man his neighbor ; and right in the face of that com- 
mand these Missionaries propose to teach every man his 
brother and every man his neighbor. If Mr. Wallace pro- 
poses to prove his doctrine from the Bible, he will first have 
to get over that point. They cannot explain it, and they 
have been going in the face of that command in point blank 
contradiction to what the Bible says. Jesus says we shall 
not do this thing, and I have always been disposed to believe 
what Jesus says. 



EEY. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : I am be- 
fore you this morning feeling better than ever, notwithstand- 
ing we have a scholar here [indicating Elder Worlds] to-day. 
There has been a scholar winking behind me, as his people 
liave been doing ever since we commenced on Monday morn- 
ing. I suppose he is here in the character of the Greek 
scholar. Well, he tried his Greek on me in Livingston 
Oounty, but it did not work. Never mind, brother Worlds^ 
your winking does you good, I suppose, and it does me no 
harm. If you think you can scare me. by it, you are fooling 
away your time. 

The first thing I notice in Mr. Hardy's speech is what he 
gets off about Peter and John, and his saying that I denied 
the Bible. Did not I show to this people that Peter and John 
were not unlearned men, for did not I show that Peter and 
John had been educated by the best theological Teacher that 
was ever on earth for three years before they went to preach 
the gospel ? Did not I show how they wrote their epistles in 
the Greek language, which was not their mother tongue? 
And if they did that, how could they have been uneducated 
men ! 

Then again, I never said that infant baptism was taugjjitin 
the Bible. I said that the word " baptism '' in the original 
meant to sprinkle or pour, and I came to refer to that be- 
cause of Mr. Hardy's running us on my remarks about the 
translation of the Bible. I told him that he was not an Old 



CHUECH IDENTITY. « 305 

Baptist, because he did not protest against the translation as 
it was first brought out. The Old Baptists would not have 
anything to do with the first translation of the Bible. Brother 
Worlds knows that that translation was made in the interest 
of the Episcopalian Church, and the Old Baptists would have 
nothing to do with it. Brother Worlds is probably a great 
scholar, and if he is, he knows that to be the fact. But what 
is the use of bringing up that question again ? It was settled 
conclusively on yesterday. 

Then, we Missionary Baptists are governed by the old 
Scriptures, says brother Hardy. There is no promise of eter- 
nal life in the old Scriptures, says he. !N"ow, is not that the- 
ology ? Ask your scholar to tell you if there is no promise 
of eternal life in the old Scriptures. Mr. Hardy asked me 
the question, What became of the people who died before 
Ohrist came into the world to save sinners ? He says there 
is nothing but law in the old Scriptures, and no promise of 
eternal life. He says what is in the Old Testament about 
that is a temporal affair. I really do not want to go to the 
trouble of answering such questions as these. 

Then he goes on about my questions, that I had submitted 
to him a lot of written questions. That is all very well; but 
I told him emphatically that he would not answer them, be- 
•cause cspme of them he could not answer, and others he would 
not answer because they were opposed to his doctrine. Were 
they not fair questions ! Did I not give him two days and a 
half in which to answer them, and did not I predict to this 
congregation that he would not answer them ? 1 told you 
that 1 expected to depart from the requirements of logic and 
•assume the burden of proof, and so perform a work of supere- 
20 



306 . DEBATE ON 

rogation and prove the negative. And now Mr. Hardy comes 
up and says that I have not touched on any of his arguments. 
Well, ladies and gentlemen, you that have listened to this 
argument must be the judges of that, and those that have 
not heard will be able to judge for themselves when this de- 
bate is printed. 

Mr. Hardy dwells mightily on his "shalls" and "wills." 
Well, I put one to him the other day when I asked him while 
Paul was writing to his son, Timothy, in the ministry, when 
he commands him in regard to prayer, that j)rayer and sup- 
I)licatiou should be made for all men, and goes on to show 
why, and he winds up with, " for he will have all men to be 
saved." I want Mr. Hardy to answer me if this was one of 
God's decretive " wills." Why did he not answer that when 
he was going on at such a rate about his " wills " and 
" shalls 1 " Here we find the Apostle saying that it is good 
and acceptable in the sight of the Savior, because " he will 
have all men to be saved." Answer me. Is this one of God's 
decretive wills '? 

But there are some other little things here that I will bring 
up after awhile in the course of my presentation of my nega- 
tive proof. What little time I have I propose to devote to 
the Scriptures. I have so far gotten from the beginning of 
the Bible up to Psalms. 

The old Bible, says Mr. Hardy, is the Missionaries' Bible. 
Kow, says Psalms (xxii. 26), " The meek shall eat and be 
satisfied ; they shall praise the Lord that seek him ; your 
heart shall live forever. 

" (27) All the ends of the world shall remember and turn 
unto the Lord ; and all the kindreds of the nations shall 
worship before thee." 



CHTJECH IDENTITY. 307 

This is the missionary doctrine that we have preached 
throughout this land, and we preach no other doctrine. Mr. 
Hardy says it was not the doctrine of the Old Baptists to 
warn sinners to flee the wrath to come. Mr. Hardy has not 
touched this thing yet. 

^ow let us hear what the old prophet Isaiah has to say : 
"Come now and let us reason together, saith the Lord: 
though your sins be as scarlet, they shall bs as white as snow : 
though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 

'' (19) If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good 
of the land : 

" (20) But if ye refuse, ye shall be devoured with the 
sword : for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it." 

But says Mr. Hardy, O ! this is only temporal. God has 
said emphatically by the mouth of his prophet, and commands 
us to preach it to the people, for he says, " As I live I have 
no pleasure in the death of the wicked." That is temporal, 
too, I suppose. 

ISTow, here again, in Isaiah Iv. 7 : " Let the wicked forsake 
his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts : and let him 
return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him j 
and to oar God, for he will abundantly pardon." [N'ow, every 
scholar knows that the verb "will" is in the active voice. 
Now, says the prophet, " Look unto me, all ye ends of the 
earth." Is not that word in the active voice also ? " And be 
ye saved." — Is not the verb " be" in the passive voice there ? 
But these people say the sinner cannot act ; no, he is dead, 
they say. But God has made man a rational creature, capable 
of receiving rewards and promises. He has promised it will be 
well with the righteoHS and ill with the wicked. A man bias 
a soul susceptible of divine impression, and God rules him by 



308 DEBATE ON 

these things. A man that cannot understand that ought to 
be put in one of brother Hardy's Sunday Schools and learn 
something. Why, a ten year old boy has better sense than 
that. 

Now, we will have some Missionary doctrine. 

Isaiah ii. 2 : " And it shall come to pass in the last days, 
that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in 
the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the 
hills : and all nations shall flow unto it. 

" (3) And many people shall go and say, Come, and let us 
go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God 
of Jacob j and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk 
in his paths : for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the 
word of the Lord from Jerusalem." 

Let us have some more. 

Isaiah xxxii. 15 : " Until the Spirit shall be poured upon 
us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and 
the fruitful field be counted for a forest. 

" (16) The judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and 
righteousness remain in the fruitful field. 

" (17) And the work of righteousness shall be peace : and 
the effect of righteousness, quietness and assurance forever. 

*' (18) And my people shall dwell, in a peaceable habita- 
tion, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places." 

Isaiah xlv. 22 : " Look unto me and be ye saved, all the 
ends of the earth : for I am God, and there is none else." 

Isaiah Iv. 6 : " Seek ye the Lord while he may be found." 
Now, perhaps the verb *' seek " there is in the passive voice, 
perhaps Mr. Hardy will say that ; " Call ye upon him while 
he is near, and he will abundantly pardon." 

Now, did you ever hear any such Scripture quoted from an 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 309 

ADtiuiission pulpit ? I want to know how often you have 
heard it quoted among Antimission Baptists. 

Mr. Watkins — I have heard it a thousand times. 

Mr. Wallace — Keep cool, my friend. I know this is hurt- 
ing you and I am sorry for it, but T cannot help it. 

Now, turn to Ezekiel xviii. 31 : '' Cast away from you all 
your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed : and 
make you a new heart and a new spirit : for why will ye die, 
O house of Israel ? 

" (32) For I have no pleasure in the death of him that 
dieth, saith the Lord God : wherefore turn yourselves, and. 
live ye." 

I heard the question once asked from one of their pulpits, 
Why is it that the sinner dies ! The only answer given was 
that it seemed good in the sight of God ; that it was because 
it seemed good to him, when God's divine word emphati- 
cally says he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. I 
have already told you that the material difference between 
these people and us is, that they preach salvation by grace 
and damnation by the decrees of God, while our people 
preach salvation by grace and damnation by works. I have 
asked Mr. Hardy as to that point before. Has he ever re- 
plied to it ? Never. 

Now, I will turn to Ezekiel xxxiii. 11 : " Say unto them, 
As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the 
death of the wicked j but that the wicked turn from his way 
and live : turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways : for why will 
ye die, O house of Israel '? " Perhaps they will say that this 
language, " turn ye,"' is also in the passive voice. I have no 
further comment to make here. 

And in Joel ii. 28 there is some more Missionary doctrine:. 



310 DEBATE ON 

' "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out 
my Spirit upon all flesh -, aud your sons and your daughters 
shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young 
men shall see visions : 

" (29) And also upon the servants and upon the hand- 
maids in those days will I pour out my Spirit." 

Micah iv. 1 : '^ But in the last days it shall come to pass, 
that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be estab- 
lished in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted 
above the hills : and people shall flow unto it. 

" (2) And many nations shall come." — ^ow that cannot 
have any reference to the Antimission Baptists, because theirs 
is but one nation; there were but forty thousand of them, and 
they have died until there are now but twenty-four thousand, 
and they are still dying, and they would be dead altogether 
if it was not for accessions from our churches. That is what 
keeps them up, and consequently this language cannot refer 
to them, because there is but one nation of them. '' And 
many nations shall come and say, Come, let us go up to the 
mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; 
and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his 
paths ', for the law shall go forth of Ziou, and the word of 
the Lord from Jerusalem." 

liTow, Zechariah i. 2: "The Lord hath been sore displeased 
with your fathers. 

" (3) Therefore, say unto them. Thus saith the Lord of 
hosts : Turn ye unto me, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will 
turn unto you, saith the Lord of hosts." Here he is enjoined 
to turn unto the Lord, and it is promised that the Lord will 
turn unto him. But these people of Mr. Hardy's say that a 
sinner cannot do that, but that the sinner is just as dead as 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 311 

a rock, and one of them proposed to join our church if he 
could make a rock. They say if no man can make rock I 
am with them. 

Zechariah iv. 6 : " Then he ansT7ered and spake unto me, 
saying, This is the word of the ,Lord unto Zerubbabel, say- 
ing, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the 
Lord of hosts. 

" (7) Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel 
thou shalt become a plain : and he shall bring forth the 
headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace 
unto it. 

'' (8) Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me saying, 

" (9) The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation 
of this house ; his hands shall also finish it ; and thou shalt 
know the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you." All intelli- 
gent people agree that this refers to the heathen nation. 

Here is more Missionary doctrine from Malachi i. 11 : ''For 
from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of 
the same, my name shall be great among the Gentiles ; and 
in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and 
a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the 
heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.'" 

God has commanded that his gospel be preached to every 
creature among the heathen. But these people of Mr. Hardy 
have never done any such thing as that in their lives. Now, 
brother Hardy said he believed in a Bible plan of missions, 
and I have called upon him time and again to state what 
that plan was. Now, I told him if I was a man who will say 
that he believes in a plan, and don't want any plan, it shows 
that he is a dodger and nothing else, because he knows the 
Bible teaches it, and that is why they believe in a Bible plan. 



312 DEBATE Olf 

iTow, I am through with the Old Tiestament, in making- 
reference to it in support of the positions I have maintained, 
I do not think brother Hardy will ever touch on these quota- 
tions. Now, once I spoke of theological teachers, and in 
support of my position in that matter I will go to the Bible 
again. Jesus Christ was not a theological teacher, but he 
was a model missionary. If he had been an antimissionary^ 
he would not have gone to foreign countries; he would not 
have left his own land and gone to j)reach the gospel to the 
heathen. And not only was Jesus Christ a missionary, but 
the angels from heaven were missionaries ; for did they not 
go to Bethlehem, and say to the shepherds, ''Fear not; for 
behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be 
to all people f But Mr. Hardy says, O no, the Lord Jesus 
has a little flock. But observe here the expression is to all 
people. "And the angel said unto them, Fear not; for be- 
hold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to 
all people. 

" (11) For unto you is born this day, in the city of David, 
a Savior, which is Christ the Lord. 

'' (12) And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the 
babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger." 

It was not a proclamation to any one man or set of men 
that the heavens resounded with the praising of God for his 
merciful character to the children of men, for it is said, "And 
suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heaven- 
ly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, 
and on earth peace, good will toward men." And not only 
this, but Simeon heard it and said, " Lord, now lettest thou, 
thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word : for 
mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast pre- 



il 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 313 

pared before the face of all people ; a light to lighten the 
Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel." Just the doc- 
trine that John the Baptist taught, that Jesus Christ taught, 
and here are the Antimissionary Baptists denying it, and 
saying that the sinner is not the subject of gospel address, 
and consequently cannot hear the gospel j that the gospel is 
not for the enlightenment of the minds of the human family.^ 
They deny that the Spirit of God can exert its influence on 
the human heart, i^ow they say that the Spirit of the Lord 
must quicken us while we are in a state of sin. He used the 
word " quicken," meaning to convince, and when the Spirit 
did convince the world, and sent good will into the world, the 
sinner is convinced of his sin. I have no doubt there are 
people before me to-day that do not claim to be righteous. 
But the Spirit of God has convinced you of your sin, and 
consequently the spirit of the gospel of the living God comes 
to you and says if you believe not that I am he, you shall die 
in your sin. Here Jesus makes salvation depend on the be- 
lief of the truth, and he tells them if you believe not you shall 
die. This is condemnation that light is come into the world, 
that men may love darkness rather than light. And this, 
my brother says, is because the sinner is under the law. I 
tell you the law has been met in the person of Jesus Christ. 
He said he came to fulfill the law, and that not one jot or 
tittle shall pass until all is fulfilled. But Mr. Hardy says 
God never made provision for the sinner, and that he must 
sink down into eternal night, and that Jesus Christ cannot 
help him, because it pleased God to leave him out of the 
covenant. If that were true, could not the sinner say to God 
at the judgment day. Why did you make me thus? You 
made me a sinner and I could not help myself. No, sir, God. 



314 DEBATE ON 

will not allow such a plea as that to be made. If the sinner 
is condemned he will be forced to acknowledge that his con- 
demnation is just, and he will not be able to charge God with 
it 5 he will never charge God with his condemnation. I wish 
to God you all would pay attention to the teachings of the 
word here to-day, and not listen to what these people tell 
you that God will call you in his own good time. Do not let 
them tell you not to be uneasy, or that if you are to be called 
you will be called. I know numbers of these people who 
have waited for the Lord's time to come, and the Lord has 
never come to them, and they have gone to their graves with- 
out the hope of salvation. I tell you that God's divine truth 
teaches that a sinner shall not wait, but will come unto him, 
and if he does not come the Lord holds him responsible for 
all his sins. 

[The Moderator informed the speaker that his time was up.] 



ELDEE HAEDY SAID: 



I JUST want to ask this intelligent congregation if brother 
Wallace, according to my request, took up my Scripture quo- 
tations and arguments and answered them at all? He said 
in the outset that he believed salvation was unconditional, 
and he challenged me to charge him with believing in a con- 
ditional plan. He, said he believed in the grace plan as much 
as I did, and now he has gone to the Scriptures in an en- 
deavor to prove that salvation is conditional, and depends 
on a certain work to be performed on the i^art of the sinner 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 315 

ill order to receive eternal salvation, l^ow, I take the posi- 
tion that the Scriptures produced by him have no reference 
to the eternal plan of salvation whatever. He has found life 
and death here, he has found eternal death and eternal life. 
He said he was going to prove eternal life, and I doubt 
whether he can find his proof in the whole Scriptures. Xow, 
I want to ask him again, right here, I want him to tell this 
people whether the Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of sin- 
ners, or whether the sinners save themselves, or whether the 
work belongs to the two combined. He then makes a great 
to-do about my saying he denied the Scriptures. I merely 
said that he denied our translation of the Scriptures and said 
that it was not true, and this statement will be borne out by 
what he says is the true, translation of the word ''baptism." 
I leave that point to be proved by the report of this debate. 

Then he goes back to Cain and Abel, but I have answered 
that part of his argument so often already that I do not see 
the necessity of following him through it again. He has not 
proved that we are required to read the Scriptures in order 
to eternal life. He has found life and death and heathen and 
hell. But the Bible says by the deeds of the law no flesh 
shall be justified. He has tried to get flesh justified by the 
deeds. 

And again, about this Cain and Abel matter. I want to 
notice one point that has run through this discussion, the 
declaration that God was no respecter of persons. The Bible 
says so; that is true. While the Bible says that God is no 
respecter of persons in one sense, there is a sense in which 
he is. Peter says, when he went over to the Gentile na- 
tions, '' I present the truth that God is no respecter of per- 
sons, but in every nation he that fears God is accepted of 



316 DEBATE ON 

bim." Suppose we accept that in the broad sense and say 
that God is no respecter of persons. We see then that he 
has as much respect for one person as for another. Then, if 
he has as much respect for one as for another, I want to know 
why he desires sinners to be converted, if he has as much re- 
spect for them in sin as in conversion. Now, that is not the 
sense which the Bible teaches. You will remember that 
Cain and Abel made an offering, and the Bible says that 
Abel and his offering were accepted, while Cain and his of- 
fering were rejected. If the person had been left out, and the 
language had reference only to the offering, there might be 
some sense in what Mr. Wallace says, but you will notice 
that the person as well as the offering is included. God had 
respect for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offer- 
ing he had no respect, neither for his offering nor his person. 
But, says one, I can tell you the reason of thatj it is because 
Abel offered in faith and Cain did not. The principle then 
is admitted here that faith was the gift of God, and if it was 
the gift of God, he has to know us before we can receive itj 
and if he gave Abel faith and none to Cain, tell me, why 
didn't he do it? 

Then Mr. Wallace comes up with his text, '' Let the wicked 
forsake his ways, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and 
let him return to the Lord." Mr. Wallace says that he never 
heard that text given by the Old Baptists from their pulpits. 
In answer to that I say I have heard it time and again. But 
this Scripture is used by them, and they apply it to the dead 
sinner. The language is, " Let the wicked forsake his way, 
and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let them return 
to the Lord, and he will have mercy, and he will abundantly 
pardon.'' But applying it to sinners there is one difficulty in 



I 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 317 

the way which he can i)robably remove. * The text says, "let 
them retiirti to the Lord."' Now, I want him to tell this peo- 
ple if that language does not mean that these people who 
were commanded to return had been to the Lord before. I 
cannot see how we can return to a place we have never been 
in. But this people, as I remarked before, were governed 
by the law. The law required them to be obedient. It laid 
down to them what they were to do, and if they violated 
that law they had to sufler death. They were commanded 
to keep the sabbath day holy ; not to do any sort of work, 
not even to kindle a fire, and if they did they were liable to 
'the penalty of death. We have an instance related in the 
Bible where violators of the law were stoned to death for 
picking up sticks on the sabbath day. Now, while these 
people were governed by the law and were obedient to the 
law, their lives were preserved and the land prospered ; but 
when they violated it, the penalty was death. When the 
laws of our land at the present day are violated, and the pen- 
alty of such violation is death, that is the end of it. But 
they had not fallen from grace at all. Now, if my brother 
Wallace has found anything in the Scriptures saying that 
salvation was conditional, he has failed to show it here. 

I want to ask this intelligent congregation another ques- 
i;ion. I want to know if the Bible contradicts itself. Are 
there any contradictions in the Bible ? Now I am not guess- 
ing at this thing at all in setting up the doctrine of salvation 
•by grace. I know I can prove it, and if I prove that, and he 
proves his doctrine of salvation by grace and works, then the 
conclusion is inevitable that tTiere are two systems taught in 
the Bible, and that the Bible contradicts itself. Now, the 
Apostle Paul was a learned man of his day, and he says 



318 DEBATE ON 

that salvation is by grace and not of works ; if it is by works^ 
it is not by grace. Xow, Paul would not let them mix up grace 
and works together in order to salvation j and if the brother 
wants to deny the grace plan, let him come up to his works and 
let us have the grace plan. If he don't want to have works 
and grace mixed up together, do as Paul did, and come up 
and say it is by grace. When ]Mr. Wallace said that salva- 
tion was partly by grace and partly by works, he positively 
contradicts the Bible, and every reader of the Bible knows it. 
Paul says distinctly it is by grace, it is not of works; if it is 
by works it is not of grace. That is as plain as I can state 
it. I cannot make it any plainer than that. But we see a 
disposition now to depart from the simplicity of the gospel 
as it was preached by the Lord Jesus Christ. 

Then Mr. Wallace refers to the angel appearing to the 
shepherds by night, and that he brought glad tidings of sal- 
vation which should be to all people. Yes, sir. Xow, were 
these glad tidings to Herod ? Let Mr. Wallace answer that. 
We learn that when the Savior was born that Herod told the 
wise men that he wanted to go and worship the child, but in 
place of going to worship the child he went and had all the 
children of Bethlehem ordered to be murdered in order that 
he might destroy the Son of God, and that was glad tidings 
to him. Brother Wallace made a great to-do over our sys- 
tem which leaves out somebody — our doctrine that the atone- 
ment of Christ does not reach the entire human family. I ask 
you if it does not seem reasonable that such a character as 
Herod, who snatched little infants from their mothers' bosoms 
and murdered them — does it not look reasonable, if there 
is not any hell, that there should be a little one fixed up for 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 31^ 

him ? I say if he proves that salvation is by works he will 
prove a system that the Apostles never preached. 

Mr. Wallace says that he believes that salvation is by 
grace, but that we must work in order to receive the grace. 
Kow, I maintain that it is not grace if he reeeives it by 
works, because when we labor for it there is a consideration 
involved and it makes it a debt ; hence it is not grace, and 
he cannot deny it. The Apostle Paul says, '• To him that 
worketh, is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.'^ 
This is the character that we find brought to view in the 
Bible J it is to these characters that have not to work. Now^, 
it is for Mr. Wallace and Paul to decide this matter between 
them. He is not fighting me ; he is fighting the Apostle, 
and if he succeeds in proving that there is a work for the 
sinner to do in order to salvation, he has then contradicted the 
Apostle and he has made Paul a liar, because Paul says if 
it is by works it is not of grace. Again, suppose God re- 
quires me to perform certain work in order to salvation. Is 
not that work, whatever it may be, necessary '? It is. It is 
necessary to be performed, and I cannot be saved without it, 
and that work must be part of my salvation. Then my sal- 
vation does not depend on the Lord Jesus Christ alone. But 
we come up here with the plain, positive declaration of Paul 
again. Eph. ii. 8 : " For by grace are ye saved, through 
faith ; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God : 

" (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast." Xow, this 
would have been the best place in the world for Paul to have 
put in " works " if that was what he meant. Mr. Wallace 
makes an effort to improve upon this language of Paul, and 
still insists that the Bible teaches that salvation is condi- 
tional and dependent upon works. But Paul comes up and 



320 DEBATE ON 

positively declares that it is by grace, that it is not by works. 
I will leave this audience to decide whether Mr. Wallace in 
that statement is contradicting me or Paul, or both of us. 
It is inconsistency and nonsense for any man in this enlight- 
ened age with this language before him to come up before an 
intelligent people and positively declare that Paul's language 
is not the truth. It is for Mr. Wallace to decide the matter 
with Paul if he can, and I would advise him not to run foul 
of me any more, but that if he must run foul of anybody to 
run foul of Paul, and then get up and tell us what Paul 
meant when he used the language I have quoted. 

iN'ow, I will turn to 1st Timothy i. 15 : " This is a faithful 
saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came 
into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." Here 
we have Paul saying that he was the chief of sinners. Now, if 
Paul was the chief of sinners, let me ask you if there was any 
greater sinner than Paul. If there was no greater sinner 
than Paul, and the Lord Jesus Christ could save him without 
any assistance, I want to know if he cannot save sinners in 
the same way to-day. What did Paul do for his salvation ? 
Did he make a point of going up to the mourners' bench 
on every occasion, or at all ? No ; persecuting the work of 
God. My brother says, and has asserted with great em- 
phasis all through this discussion, that he is going to estab- 
lish his position by the Bible. I hope in the course of what 
he has to say he will tell us whether there is such a thing as 
a mourners' bench mentioned in the Bible. For my part I 
have never seen or heard of one. Paul says that '' Christ 
Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am 
chief." Does this people doubt the language of the Apostle ? 
If Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, I want 



I 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 321 

t)rotlier Wallace to tell me if lie did it. If he did not do it, 
I want him to tell me the reason why he didn't do it. If 
Jesus Christ did do it, I want him then to tell me what was 
left behind for the Missionaries to do in that great work. If 
it has been done, there is nothing more le^t to be done. 
IS'ow, these are the plain declarations of God. It is according 
to his unalterable decree, and they are so strong that my op- 
ponent in this debate will not attempt to answer them. 

There is no use of his throwing up what one of the old Bap- 
tists may have said, and reproaching the whole sect for that. 
I am not here to defend the utterances of any such a one ; 
I am here to defend the doctrine of the Eegular Baptists as a 
body. My business is to stand up in defense of the church 
as it is in the Lord Jesus Christ. I feel it my duty — before 
God I do — to defend my ancient Baptist brethren and people 
against the charge that they believe something that they 
never did believe. I feel it my duty to defend a people 
that has come up through the dark ages, and which suffered 
4eath, hundreds and thousands of them being put to death, 
and they had to resort to the dens and caves of the earth, 
and that were persecuted as the Apostles of old were. That 
believe in the divine teachings of God when Christ gave the 
<}ommand, " Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel 
to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall 
be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned." He 
commanded them- to go, and they went without the aid of our 
missionary board. My brother says he believes in the Bible 
plan of missions ; if he will read his Bible he will see what 
that plan is. This is the Bible plan. Jesus Christ calls his 
preachers and sends th\Mn to preach everlasting salvation. 
21 



322 DEBATE ON 

They had no missionary boards then, however, that I have 
heard of. But have they not gone into all the world? What 
does Paul mean? Paul says that the gospel has been 
preached to every creature which is under heaven, and the 
Waldenses were like the Apostles when Jesus commanded 
them to go. He says when ye are persecuted in one city flee 
to another. That was the' command, and the gospel was 
spread in that day by persecution, and I do not deny for a 
moment but what brethren assisted these men that preached 
the everlasting gospel. I believe that they were helped, and 
I believe that the brethren paid the servants to preach. I 
believe that all God's peoj)le will do that to-day. I believe 
that when preachers go to preach the word the Lord will 
ever put it into the hearts of his people to hold up their 
hands for them. I never have begged for one dollar during 
my whole life of preaching, and I have spent one half of 
my time preaching the everlasting gospel of the Son of God j 
but I am not afraid that my brethren will let me do down 
and suffer for anything. 1 have more confidence in them 
than that. I do not have to have a salary made up for me 
and made secure before I go to preach the word of God. I 
firmly believe that God will provide for his preachers, for he 
says, " Lo, I am with you," and if we have that we need not 
fear. But how much of the work does God do ? Let us ex- 
amine again 2d Timothy i. 9, 10: "Who has saved us, and 
called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, 
but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given 
us in Christ Jesus before the world began : 

" (10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our 
Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath 
brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 



CHUEOH IDENTITY. 323 

Kow, if it just read " life and immortality through the gos- 
pel,'- my brother might have something to go on, but life and 
immortality do not come from the proclamation of the gos- 
pel. Mr. Wallace has charged it on our people that we do 
not believe the gospel has anything to do in the salvation of 
sinners. If he simply refers to Christ, we admit that it does; 
but if he has reference to the vocal utterances of the preacher, 
we deny its having anything to do with the sinner's eternal 
salvation, for the Bible positively says that he has saved ug. 

Now, their idea is that the preacher must go and make the 
call, and when they make the call, if the sinner obeys, th-e 
Lord will save him. But I want you to notice that by the 
language of the Bible the saving comes before the calling. 
He Mth saved us and called us with an holy calling. But 
Mr. Wallace's people say that it is according to our works. 
If that had been so, Paul should have said itj but Paul posi- 
tively declares that it is not our works that save us. The ' 
Apostle says, " For we ourselves also were sometimes fool- 
ish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, 
living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another," 
Why are we saved ! Is it because we do something good ? 
The Apostle says not by works of righteousness which we 
have done, but it is according to the mercy of God. And I 
want to impress that upon the minds of this people to-day, 
that if you are saved, it is by the mercy of God and not by 
any work of yours. So we see here that the saving and call- 
ing of people to God, that everything necessary to salvation, 
is the work of God 5 and when he calls, it is impossible that 
we can refuse, absolutely impossible. 

It does seem passing strange that people can come to the 
conclusion that God, having creative power, has created man 



324 DEBATE ON 

aad placed him here on eartb*, and has given him equal 
power with himself— a power that enables him to reject the 
wooings of the Spirit until it takes its everlasting flight. I 
want the brother to tell^me when the Spirit comes, how far 
it goes with the sinner hefore it takes its flight. Does it en- 
ter his heart, or does it go begging around trying to get in 
but cannot. Does it teach him anj thing of the Father ? The 
Bible says, " It is written in the prophets, And they shall 
all be taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard 
and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." Now, what 
is Jesus going to do with themi Is he going to turn them 
off 1 O no; he will not turn one of them off. And let me 
tell you, sinner, if you feel like going to Jesus, I will insure 
that he will not turn you away. 

[The Moderator announced, that the speaker's time was up.] 



EEV. ME. WALLACE SAID: 

I AM before you again better than ever, notwithstanding I 
am very hoarse. Kow, as to what brother Hardy has said 
in his last speech, I do not know how often he has said that 
same since this discussion began. His part of this book will 
be filled up with what he has said about the articles of faith. 
That is about all he has said since he commenced. I just 
want to notice some few things he said. I want you to take 
particular notice of what I will say, and when my time is up 
just let me know it. He says that I said here in the first 
place and avowed it, that salvation was unconditional, ifow, 
I explained that, and it is no use for me to go over that again. 
I know that this people know what I said, and as I re- 
marked time and again about these things, it will all appear 
in the report of this discussion and will show for itself. 

I know that as far as bringing man here is concerned I had 
nothing to do with it. I know as far as atonement is con- 
cerned I had nothing to do with it. It was promised before 
there was any living creature born on earth. And among 
other things we may speak of, I have told you time and 
again that we do not believe in salvation by works. Why, 
then, is he going on with his harangue about this? Why 
don't he touch the subject of the discussion '? That is where 
he don't want to go. Has he ever been on that subject since 
this discussion commenced ? I have shown this people that 
we do believe in salvation by grace and damnation by works, 
and I charge it on him that they preach damnation by tb^ 



326 DEBATE ON 

decrees of God, and he has never attempted to answer it. 
Kow, why don't he talk on that point? But that don't set- 
tle him. He goes on with his salvation by grace, and says I 
am conflicting with him and Paul. I wonder which of them 
is the largest ? I -reckon he thinks he is head and shoulders 
above Paul. Why don't you answer what Paul said, when 
Paul said God would have all men to be saved ? Why don't 
you say whether that is God's decretive will or not ? 

Then we have the old matter of faith and repentance. He 
says I acknowledge that. Of course I do. The Bible teaches 
it. Eepentance and faith is the gift of God; but does God 
repent for man ? I asked Mr. Hardy whether the words " re- 
pent '* and '' believe " were in the active or passive voice. Now, 
my life, my house, the earth, the rain, the sunshine, are all 
the gifts of God. But am I to expect to make a living out of 
them? Is God going to fill my barns? I know that these 
things are the gifts of God, but am I to sit down and do 
nothing in the hope that God will save me? I know that 
God has emphatically said repentance and faith are the gifts 
of God; and will God withhold it when he wants a man to 
repent? When we are commanded by God to do a thin^, 
and by doing it we will be saved, does not that command 
imply that he means to do what he says if we obey the com- 
mand? Here are two men in prison in our county jail, con- 
demned for the crime^f murder; they are under the law of 
damnation because of their crime. The Governor issues a 
proclamation and tells both of them that if they will confess 
their guilt they will be pardoned. Xow, what is this? It is 
the grace of the Governor bestowed on these criminals. They 
have never petitioned him for it. They have no idea of his 
offering this mercy; it is of his own free grace. On their 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 327 

trial they had both pleaded not guilty, but they are con- 
demned by sentence of the law. When the Governor's mes- 
sage comes, says one, I will do it, I am guilty j the other 
denies that he is guilty. Then, I ask, who shuts the door of 
mercy, is it the Governor, or the i^risoner himself f God de- 
mands repentance at the hands of the sinner, and if he re- 
ceives that condition of salvation and obeys it, he is saved j 
if he does not he shuts the door of mercy on himself and will 
be damned. Jesus Christ said, ''If ye believe not I am he, 
you shall die in your sins." This is the condemnation that 
light ha« come into the world, and men live in darkness 
rather than in light. This is the declaration of Jesus Christ; 
he tells us emphatically what is damnation. 

I do not know how often I have set up these things against 
his arguments, and he has never answered me. I told him 
to throw his logic on this, and I think I have repeated it 
twice that we are taught in the Scriptures that the wicked 
are to be punished, and that God is the punisher; that if God 
is the punisher the punishment is just, because God is just j if 
the punishment is j ust man is guilty j if a man is guilty he could 
have acted otherwise; if he could have acted otherwise he 
was a free moral agent, and was und^ no law of necessity. 
I have asked him several times to answer that proposition. 

Well, he has found a Bible plan at last, however. The 
Bible plan was that they are to send brother Fulkerson to 
Kansas to organize a church, and his brethren paid the ex- 
penses ; that was missionary work, he says, i^ow, he says 
Paul says the gospel was preached in all the world, and 
brother Worlds winked to him. Now, I ask you, brother 
Worlds, will you wink to me ? When Paul said to preach to 
all the world did he mean all the world ? 



328 DEBATE ON 

Brother Worlds — He says the souDd is gone unto all the 
earth. You may tell the people that. 

Mr. Wallace— Then have it all the earth. I say that it 
don't mean all the earth as we now use it. Paul at that 
time, when he used that language, knew there were thou- 
sands and thousands of people that never heard the gospel, 
and I know if you are acquainted with history you know it 
too. 1^0 w, here we have this Scripture in Luke ii. 1 "And 
it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree 
from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.'^ 
Here he says, "All the world," the Bible says all the world. 
Was that the Jewish nation ? Did that language cover the 
Jewish nation ? What authority did Caesar Augustus have 
over the Jews? He was a Eoman governor; and this lan- 
guage means nothing. When Paul says " all the earth," he 
means the Jewish nation ; there were thousands of people 
that the gosi)el had never reached, and any man familiar 
with the history of the world knows that to be true. 

Now, my brother says that proclaiming the gospel ha& 
nothing whatever to do with the salvation of sinners. Here 
my brother and Paul come in conflict, for Paul says, " It 
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them 
that believed." So here my brother comes in conflict with 
Paul. I have never said that salvation was by works alone. 
I have repeated that often here. Why come at the close of 
this discussion and take up that point again ? 

Now, let us have something more of this matter of the 
mourners' bench. I thought I had soured you on that ques- 
tion, but it seems not. The ancient Baptists had them when 
my brother Hardy and myself were together in one church. 
We had then glorious revivals, mourners' benches and alL 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 329 

But yon have repudiated them now. Well, the Methodists 
might as well get up and argue this question, for I suppose 
there are fifty persons here who are Methodists, and the Meth- 
odists have mourners' benches. And I say that if any of 
these Methodists were to go into the fold of my brother 
Hardy, every last one of them would be received. Thsy call 
such things the devil's work. ^N^ow, I would not be guilty — 
I would be ashamed to make expressions of that kind before 
people, so long as I was receiving converts from them and 
rejoicing over them ; and, as I told you, if it had not been 
for such converts, brother Hardy's denomination would be 
dead to-day, but these people will not give credit to whom 
credit is due. 

I remarked that Jesus Christ was a model missionary, and 
my brother has never undertaken to refute that assertion. 
I told you he had gone into foreign countries as these people 
have never done ; they have never left their own country to 
preach the gospel to their fellow-men. The command is to 
all the Church, Go into all the world and preach the gospel 
to every creature, for all power have I given to you. But,, 
say the Old Baptists, I won't go because the power was 
given to Christ. They refuse to march to the orders of Jesus 
Christ, and they stand still against the marching orders of 
the great head of the church, and they cannot deny it. And 
not only did Christ make the church a great missionary body, 
but the Apostles acted on the same principle. 

I turn to Acts xi. 22 : '' Then tidings of these things came 
unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem ; and 
they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as An- 
tiocb." That was a heathen nation three hundred miles 
distant from Jerusalem. Here were missionaries sent there 



330 DEBATE ON 

by the Apostles by the orders of Christ. " Who, when he 
came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted 
them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto 
the Lord." 

Now, we have in Acts xiii. 1: ''Now there were in the 
churck that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers: 
as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Mger, and Lucius 
of Gyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with 
Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 

" (2) As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy 
Ghost said. Separate me Barnabas and Saul, for the work 
whereunto I have called them. 

'•' (3) And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid 
their hands on them, they sent them away." That is, the 
church sent them. " So they being sent forth by the Holy 
Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed 
to Cyprus. 

^'(5) And when they were at Salamis, they preached the 
woM of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had 
also John to their minister. 

" (6) And when they had gone through the isle unto Pa- 
phos," — which was two hundred miles more — " they found a 
certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was 
Bar-jesus: 

" (7) Which was the deputy of the county, Sergius Paulus, 
a prudent man j who called for Barnabas and Saul, and de- 
sii-ed to hear the word of God. 

" (8) But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by inter- 
pretation) withstood them, seeking to turn the deputy from 
the faith. 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 331 

'< (9) Then Saul, (who also is called Paul) filled with the 
Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, 

<^ (10) And said, O full of all subtil ty, and all mischief, thou 
child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou 
not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord ? 

" (11) And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, 
and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. 
And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness ; 
and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. 

" (12) Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, be- 
lieved, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord. 

^' (13) Xow when Paul and his company loosed from Pa- 
phos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia : and John departing 
from them, returned to Jerusalem. 

'' (14) But when they departed from Perga, they came to 
Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sab- 
bath day, and sat down. 

" (15) And after the reading of the law and the prophets, 
the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying. Ye men 
and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the 
people, say on. 

" (16) Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand, 
said. Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. 

" (17) The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and 
exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land 
of Egypt, and with a high arm brought he them out of it. 

" (18) And about the time of forty years suffered he their 
manners in the wilderness. 

^' (19) And when he had destroyed seven nations in the 
land of Canaan, he divided their land to them by lot." 

Then he destroyed them on account of their sins and in^ 



332 DEBATE ON 

iquities. Here we find that the Apostles went from one 
heathen city to another, to the distance of twelve hundred 
miles, and when they returned to the church to make their 
report there was great rejoicing on account of their success 
in preaching the gospel to the heathen nations. Has Mr. 
Hardy and his people ever preached the gospel to the heathen 
nations ? I say that they never had a missionary of any kind. 
They are opposed to missionaries being sent under the march- 
ing orders of high heaven, and the great head of the church. 
Here we find a missionary body of the Apostles, chosen by the 
churches to travel and preach the gospel unto these heathen 
nations ; and we learn on one occasion, when Paul went out 
as a missionary and traveled to several places, he went to 
Philippi and held there a great protracted meeting. But 
these Antimission Baptists cannot stand that sort of thing, 
they cannot stand a three days protracted meeting. But 
they used to stand it when they were with us, and when we 
had mourners' benches, and when we rejoiced in the conver- 
sion of a sinner, and when we had no such cold preaching as 
they have now. They hate all these things because they ap- 
peal direct to the heart. Jesus Christ says, How can I escape 
damnation, how can I escape hell ? He appeals to them, and 
calls them a generation of vipers, meaning devils, they were 
such great sinners. How can I escape the damnation of 
hell 1 That is the way Christ talked to the people, and he 
demanded of them repentance before he would administer 
baptism. John said, Eepent and believe. Jesus Christ said 
the very same thing. And we find while Paul was at Philippi,- 
holding protracted meetings, there was a woman Lydia 
there, and God bent her heart to attend to the things spoken 
of by Paul ; and while she was there I will show you where 



CHURCH IDENTITY. . 333 

there were mourners' benches before I get through. They 
tried to keep her from salvation, but she said these men are 
the servants of the most high God, which show the way of 
salvation, just as these Antimissionaries scoff at the mourners^ 
bench, and try all the means in their power to keep men from 
this means of salvation, and call it the devil's work. I tell 
you that Paul was a missionary man, and I tell you God has 
commanded us to preach the gospel to all creatures. Now, I 
think after these Antimissionaries have received this mate- 
rial from the Bible about protracted meetings, and having 
heaped their vituperations on the Missionaries, I think they 
ought to shut up. I tell you if I were they T would quit such 
talk as they have been making, as God is my judge. When 
God's divine Spirit works among the people there will be 
Missionary Baptists. If God's divine Spirit accompanies his 
word there will be results. God can use his means to bring 
a sinner to salvation. God can use anything j strong means, 
weak means, or any means at all. We cannot limit the power 
of God ; it will reach man anywhere and under all circum- 
stances, wherever his lot may be cast. He may be in prison, 
or he may be at the altar of prayer 5 he may be under the 
gallows and about to be executed, and the power of God may 
reach him. 

[The Moderator anaounced that the speaker's time was up, and the de- 
bate was thereapou adjourned uatil the afternoon.] 



ELDEE HAEDY SAID: 

[Pursuant t© the adjournment, the debate was continued in the after- 
noon. The rules governing the discussion vrere read by the Moderator.] 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and GentlemeD: I am 
before you now for the purpose of speaking my last half hour 
in which I will be permitted to bring in any new testimony. 
But before proceeding with the legitimate line of my argu- 
ment, I desire to notice some statements that my brother 
made in his last speech. He claims that he asked me ques- 
tions several times in regard to free moral agency; and 
among other things he quotes a proposition which I will 
read, in order that I may the better answer him. " If man 
is to be punished in the world to come, God must be the pun- 
isher; if God be the punisher, the punishment must be just; 
if the punishment be just, the punished must be guilty; if 
the punished be guilty, they could have done otherwise." 
He says that they could have done otherwise, and that con- 
sequently this proves the doctrine of free moral agency. 
Now, I say they could not have done otherwise, and if i 
don't prove that assertion, then let it fall. 

The Bible says that " The Lord hath made all things for 
himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." And the 
Lord says again (Daniel xii. 10), " But the wicked shall do 
wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the 
wise shall understand." The Bible says especially that there 
are characters that cannot understand. The Bible says that 
they are all in a natural state, and that they have no fear of 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 335 

God before their eyes. The Bible says that there is none 
that understands, and none that seeketh after God. Now, 
Mr. Wallace admits here that everything we enjoy is the gift 
of God. So do I say the same thing. I agree with him that 
the clothes we wear and the water we drink and the fire that 
gives us warmth are all the gifts of God. But I want you to 
notice another thing. Sometimes they will come up and 
argue in this way, and say that these Old Baptists sit down 
on a stool and do nothing. Suppose, he says, you sit down 
on a stool and do nothing; when the time comes round for 
you to plant your crop and seed for the harvest, will you sit 
down and do nothing ? How much will you reap if you sit 
down on a stool and do nothing ! l^ow, that is a beautiful 
argument. Now, suppose brother Worlds and myself were 
to undertake to make a crop, and we go out and plow, and 
make all necessary arrangements to get our ground all ready 
for planting, and when we come to look around we find we 
have not got a. grain of corn in the world. What would we 
do ? We would turn in and get a few grains. But let me 
tell you, that corn is the gift of God, as everything else is y. 
and when God sends us the grain and the soil we can cul- 
tivate it, but not until then. And so it is with the Spirit of 
God ; when he sends it to us we can cultivate it, and there 
will be a great increase. 

Then my brother comes up with his quotation of '^ all men " 
and '' all the world." Now, that is the charge laid again&t 
us, that we believe that that word " all" really means a part, 
and he acknowledges himself that the word "all" as used 
there does not mean everything. Now, that is the charge 
made against us in the Paducah JS/'ews, ofter our former dis- 
cussion. It said that Mr. Hardy took the position that Christ 



336 DEBATE ON 

did not die for all men. Of course I know that the words 
•• every man " and " all men," and such expressions as these, 
do not every time mean everything; so when we come to the 
expression, '' all the world," it does not mean everything. 
The " whole world," as used in the Bible, does not really mean 
the entire world. That is what we have ever contended for. 
But the Apostle says that they went forth and preached 
■everywhere. ]S"ow, he meant something by that, and let the 
Bible mean as much for us as it does for them. 

And then he tells us that by the foolishness of preaching 
it pleased God to save them that believe. Again, that is 
what we have always contended for, that God will save those 
that believe. I will read now from 1st Corinthians i. 21: 
^' For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom 
knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching 
to save them that believe. 

" (22) For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek 
after wisdom : 

" (23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a 
stumbling-block, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 

'' (24) But unto them which are called, both Jews and 
Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." 

Now, what do they get out of this quotation ? The Apostle 
here says that we preached Christ and him crucified, to the 
Jews a stumbling-block, and unto the Greeks foolishness. 
He is now talking to the Jews and Greeks, and he says that 
the preaching of the gospel to these Greeks is foolishness, 
and a stumbling-block before them. But it seems there is 
another character brought to view here. There is the Greeks 
and the Jews, and it seems they are called; he called them. 
If the preachers called them, what is the foolishness in 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 337 

preaching to them 1 If it was their business to call these 
people, why didn't they answer? It is the Lord that the 
Apostle says saved us and called us. He here refers to the 
Jews and Greeks that they were preached to, and on the day 
of Pentecost, when the Apostles stood up and preached that 
the people cried out, " Men and brethren, what shall we dof 
The Apostle replied, " Eepent, and be baptized, every one 
■of you." What made these people cry out ? Notice a little 
further. The Apostle says that the promise is unto you. 
The Apostle knew, because these people had cried out and 
showed that they had wisdom about these things, and conse- 
quently he could say, " The promise is unto you." The peo- 
ple, crying out, made it manifest that they were living chil- 
dren. You never heard a dead child cry. They were living 
children ; and if there were living persons here, and were to 
ask to-day, "What must I do to be saved F it would be 
manifest that they were enlightened by the Holy Spirit. 
Then the Apostle goes on to say, " For the promise is unto 
you, and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as 
many as the Lord our God shall call." But I want you to 
notice the point, "It pleased God by the foolishness of preach- 
ing to save them that believe." Suppose it had read thus, 
" It pleased God to save the unbeliever j" what would we 
have said that meant ! Of course that it pleased him to save 
the unbeliever. But it does not say that. It says that it 
pleased God to save those that believe. He is talking, you 
observe, to the believer, and it is the believer under consid- 
eration here. But the wonder is how it is that the believer 
can be saved ? Did not the Apostle Paul, when he was ad- 
22 



338 DEBATE ON 

moBisbing his son Timothy, say, '' Take heed unto thyself, 
and unto the doctrine ; continue in them : for in doing this 
thou Shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee !" And 
this individual was a gospel preacher at the time Paul was 
admonishing him. '' Save yourself j'^ how ? By taking heed 
unto yourself, and to the doctrine contained in this book, 
and avoiding the delusions and false systems in the world, 
and you will also save others if they follow you. Xow, it 
seems a hard matter for people to discern between -eternal 
salvation and this salvation spoken of here. 

I have now attended to two of Mr. Wallace's quotations. 
I will now proceed with my argument. 

In John vi. 44, Jesus says, — and I want you to pay par- 
ticular attention to it — that " no man can come to me, except 
the Father which hath sent me draw him.'' Xow, with that 
in view, I would ask if there is any way by which a man can 
come to Jesus except he be drawn by the Father. If there 
is, why did Jesus use the above language? O, but, says 
one, we believe that too. We believe that there must be 
a drawing; that the Father is drawing at every sinner, try- 
ing to draw them to him. But Jesus says, "All that the 
Father giveth me shall come to meP Here we see that Jesus 
uses the word " shall," and has not left it discretionary with 
the sinner. The sinner has no will to come until he is made 
willing by the Spirit. We take the position that God does 
not draw the sinner against his will, for he says, "My people 
shall be willing in the day of thy power.'^ He gives them 
power and then they come. And notice here we find that he 
says he found Jacob in the wilderness, and he found his peo- 
ple where he found Jacob, in the wilderness of sinj and let 



CHURCH IDENTITY. SS^ 

me tell yon, the Lord Jesus Christ does not require you to 
come up and meet him on any half-way ground j every sin- 
ner in the world would go to hell if that were the case. It 
would be impossible; they cannot come half-way to meet 
him. And that is our doctrine. These Missionaries still 
think, as my brother's argument would seem to show, that 
God requires man while in a helpless condition to act m 
order to get life ; while we believe that a man cannot act 
unless he has life. Kow, I am not talking about natural life,, 
but about spiritual life. We have natural lives and can think 
of natural things, but we cannot act in a capacity in whicb 
we do not live. That is impossible. But when we are 
capacitated, I take the position that that may be done by the- 
power of God. When we are capacitated to understand 
spiritual things and to worship God in a spiritual capacity^ 
then we can do it, and it is our duty and God requires it of 
us. But God does not require any impossibilities of man. 
Now, the plan I understand them to have is that sinners go 
to hell. This is what God has against them. He requires 
them to do certain work ; he requires them to meet him half- 
way; they won't do it, and consequently they are sent to 
hell, yet they tell us he loves them mighty well. He loves 
them so well that he sent Christ into the world to die for their 
sins. Now, I have asked him the question, I believe, once 
or twice, which characters will go to hell. He admitted that 
a portion of the human race goes there, and I admit the same 
thing; but these characters that go to hell— I asked him the 
question. Did God purpose to save these characters that do 
go to hell, or did he try to save them ? I don't know whether 
he ever did or not; but I am inclined to believe that whatever 



3i0 DEBATE ON 

God tries to do be succeeds in. We are told that God spake 
and it was done. He don't make any inquiry whether I can 
do this, that, or the other, but he says let him do thus and 
so, and the work is done according to his divine purpose. 
That is my belief. 

Well, I believe he has given up that he cannot find the 
mourners' bench in the Bible. He says that when a man 
mourns on the ground that is a mourners' bench; a pretty 
•extensive mourners' bench, to be sure. But on that subject it 
seems to me that everything has been said that is necessary 
on my part, and I believe I will stop on that branch of the 
subject 

I want to remark further that it has been charged upon 
us, and the impression has gone out on the minds of this 
people, that the Old Baptists were drunkards, that the Old 
Baptists had persons in their communion that were drunk- 
ards, and that it was a common thing. I think every Old 
Baptist in this portion of the country knows that that is not 
true, and the statement that we turned out of our church Old 
Baptists for giving a dollar for benevolent institutions, or 
paying a dollar for the support of little orphans, is equally 
untrue. I tell you before God that I would pay a dollar or 
more at any time for such a purpose, and I don't believe that 
there is an Old Baptist here that would hesitate to contribute 
to the support of a fatherless child. It is an accusation that 
is wholly and entirely false, and it is just such denunciations 
as these that have given rise to the idea which prevails now 
that the Old Baptists are so selfish, that the Old Baptists don't 
care for anybody but themselves, ^ow, I have just this much 
to say, the Old Baptists are not perfect in everything, but as 



GHUROH IDENTITY. 341 

far as these things I have mentioned are concerned, I believe 
they are as good and would aid in such things as quick as 
any person under heaven. But what we object to is sucli 
matters 'of general association, where one may take a seat for 
one dollar, and may purchase a life membership for thirty 
dollars. That is something that cannot be denied here. My 
brother attempts to get out of it by saying that it is not an 
individual matter, but an association of churches. If that 
were true it would probably have been stated in the circular 
that I have referred to, and I take the liberty of denying that 
it is so. Ivead what Belcher says on page 984, " Only six 
millions of dollars are spent annually to keep six thousand 
missionaries in the United States," while we are told in the 
circular I have referred to that it cost ninety-five millions of 
dollars annually. Don't you see what a tremendous amount 
of money it takes to support this kind of religion ? Jesus 
says, " Upon this rock I will build my church j" and let me tell 
you, this church that Jesus built is not of the world j it don't 
take the wealth of the world to support it, but Jesus does it 
by his own power, and I thank God that Jesus rules and 
reigns, and I thank God that my eternal salvation depends 
upon Jesus Christ, and upon Jesus Christ alone. And let 
me tell you here before God whom I look to, take Jesus from 
me and you have left me nothing, but give me him and I 
have everything. The wealth of the world is nothing as far 
as that is concerned, and yet they say I am opposed to mis- 
sionaries. I only desire to proclaim the truth of Christ, and 
you can call me what you like. I have never been sent to 
preach by missionary support, and I may state here that one- 
half of my entire time is devoted to preaching the gospel ta 



342 DEBATE ON 

the people. And I tell you if you depend on your works for 
salvation, you will find when the time comes that it will not 
do J when it comes to death you will have to trust to Jesus 
alone. These people of Mr. Wallace have everything condi- 
tional except resurrection, and they would have that condi- 
tional if they could make it. 

And there is another remark I wish to make — 1 have the 
paper here to prove it — that there are some members of the 
Missionary Baptists that are now in favor of taxing the 
members. 

[The Moderator interrupted the speaker, as his time was up.] 



EEY. MR. WALLACE SAIl^: 

GENTLE3IEN Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : I am 
before you again. Brother Hardy got on to my logic this 
time J he is getting along very well now. Brother Worlds 
ought to have been here since the beginning of this discus- 
sion to post him up. Why, brother Worlds, you never 
heard such stuff as brother Hardy has been getting off here 
in your absence. You have just come too late, but this thing 
is all to be published, and it will show what he has been 
doing. I would advise you to read it carefully. 

Well, well, preaching to the believer to save the believer, 
he says. By the foolishness of preaching it pleased God to 
save the believer. You preach to the believer to save the 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 343 

"believer. That has been your logic in this discussion. 
Brother Worlds, you should take him out and drill him 
again. Such logic as that is too thin to pay any attention 
to. Now, you have preached that the sinner is not the sub- 
ject of gospel address, and consequently they preach to the 
believer to save the believer. That is their doctrine in this 
country. We have it here in Coffey. The individual must 
be quickened by the divine Spirit of God before he is the 
subject of gospel address. That is what they preach, conse- 
quently they never preach to the sinner, though he has 
denied it time and again since this discussion came up. " Ko 
man can come to me except the Father draw him." I quoted 
that language before you did; don't you take the other side 
now. I did not tell you that a man could come to God with- 
out the Father drawing him. I have set that up time and 
again. I have spoken of this often enough, so far as that is 
concerned, that no man can come to the Son except God the 
Father draw him. God has ordained his means to draw him, 
and consequently the Spirit of the living God accompanies 
the preaching of the gospel, and by that influence the sinner 
is drawn to Christ. And while this is true, the divine being 
said, ^' Ye will not come to me that you might have life.'- 
Does not that indicate that the sinner might come to God 
and have life? But what is the use of going over these 
things again? I have had to retail them time and time 
again, and I think I have impressed this argument on the 
minds of this people. 

" My people shall be a willing people in the day of thy 
power," quotes Mr. Hardy. That is just what I say; but God 
has ordained his means in the day of his power, and God 
sent forth missionary preachers for the same purpose, accom- 



344 DEBATE ON 

paDied by the uivine Spirit to make, them willing. If man 
would come to God of his own accord, there would be no use 
of the gospel 5 of Christ there would uot. Xow, according ta 
your own doctrine, if you carry it out right, man can be 
brought to conversion if he was quarreling with his wife, or 
committing murder, providing he was one of the elect. That 
is your doctrine that you have preached in this country, that 
salvation is without works. 

During this discussion I called on Mr. Hardy to tell us 
something about damnation. He has had a great deal to say 
about grace. Have not I heard it time and again that they 
preach damnation by the decrees of God, and have I not 
charged him with preaching that? Why don't he answer 
that! 

Well, he says there is not an individual in hell that God 
ever loved. Well, I don't know about that; I have never 
been down there, and that is not all ; if I can help it 1 don't 
intend to go there. But I learned of one young man who- 
came to Christ to know what he must do to be saved, and he 
pleaded self-righteousness, that he had done all the things 
that were required. That was the besetting sin of his; Christ 
knew his heart, and he told him he had not done them. I 
tell you what you must do to have eternal life, sell all you 
have and give it to the poor. Christ saw his covetousness, 
and the young man went away in his sin, and Christ loved 
him as he loved all other sinners, just in the same degree. 

Then he complains of my charge against them about their 
not turning people out of their church for whiskey drinking. 
Ah! that hurts them. They could not stand that. They 
deny it now, and claim that they never turned anybody out 
for giving money to charitable institutions. Well, if you are 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 345 

not convinced that it is proved when the report of this dis- 
cussion comes out, you can accuse me of saying what is not 
true. And it is of no use telling that again here, for I have 
proved they have done it. 

And here he comes again with his "Money! money?: 
money !'^ But, he says, these Missionaries are giving away 
their money. Well, it is not your money, and I reckon we 
have a right to do with our own money as we please. You 
never gave a dollar in your life, and you have no business to 
complain of what we do with money that don't belong to you. 
I don't see why you ought to be worried over that. It don't 
concern you in the least. Have not I a right to give my 
money to any institution, any charitable institution that I 
see fit? Brother Worlds says, ^'Away with them — away 
with your Bible societies !" Now, I have set up the objects 
of the Bible society. It is well known what its objects are, 
and it is of no use fooling away time any longer on that 
point. I just merely called your attention to it. But I sup- 
pose all this is done in order to call my attention away from 
the Bible, but I propose to resume it. "I say therefore unto 
you that you will die in your sins; if you believe not I am he, 
you shall die in your sins." I have told this people that 
nothing in the world shall damn them but unbelief, not the 
decrees of God 5 I have proved that. And I don't think 
there is any use of going over that again. John iii. 18: " He 
that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that be- 
lieveth not is condemned already," because God decreed it. 
He wants us to read it right; that is a very good way to 
read it. Here is ttie very reason set up of the cause of dam- 
nation — " Because he hath not believed " — and this is damna- 
tion. Did God decree it from eternity? Observe the Ian- 



346 DEBATE ON 

guage, '' Because he hath not believed in the name of the 
only begotten Son of God." This is the reason to-day that 
condemnation rests on the human family. I asked my 
brother to answer the question, What is condemnation ? Is 
it the decree of God to finally condemn ? Has he answered 
that ? I say he has not. I will answer it. If such had been 
the case, all the human family would have gone down to con- 
demnation, because they are all under the decree of condem- 
nation. !N'ow, if it had been his decree to finally condemn, 
no mortal man could have been saved. Brother Worlds 
knows that this is so if he would but acknowledge it. Xow 
I will turn from this. 

I have something more to say about missionary operations, 
and as I have come to this, I wish to continue this subject. 
Kow, while Paul was pressing the brethren at Eome, he uses 
this language: "I am debtor both to Greeks, and to the 
barbariansj both to the wise, and to the- unwise." Observe, 
he says to the wise and to the unwise. The barbarians were 
the heathen, and you know the Greeks were the philoso-' 
phers of the day; and he was under obligations to i^reach 
the gospel to all of them. Then he says, " So, as much as in 
me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at 
Eome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ j 
for it is the power of God unto salvation." I told you that 
the old prophet said that in the day of his power would he 
make his people willing. Xow, here is the day of his power 
when he ordains the preachers to preach the gospel to the 
people. It is the divine ordaining of God — Jesus Christ has 
ordained it — it is the ordinance of salvation that God himself 
has declared from his eternal throne, and he will carry it out,- 
and there is a people that has preached the gospel to every 



CHURCH IDENTITY. . 347 

one as Jesus ordained it, and the power was given him from 
heaven, and he could have ordered the church to march on- 
ward, and when that church refuses to do it, she is rebelling 
against the marching orders of high heaven. This is the 
power to every one that believeth the glad tidings, and this 
is great joy that Christ has brought to us, for he is the au- 
thor of it. He was the missionary to this land; he brought 
his own gospel here that we might have access to the throne 
of grace. ]S"ot onl3'- that, but it was anciently so. I don't 
believe that there was any life in the old Scriptures — I don't 
believe it. Jesus has always been in the world. ]S"ot only 
was he manifest in the flesh, but he has been here since 
man's fall, looking forward to the atonement that God should 
make for sutt'ering humanity. Christ has ever been in the 
world, and consequently there were nations that looked for- 
ward to that time. Everything centers in Jesus, and all men 
look forward to the atonement ; and Christ ordained his own 
gospel to bring in the elect of God, those that were elected 
before the foundation of the world. God ordains his own 
means. How does he tell you that we shall preach salva- 
tion ? By our works, and by the mediation of the Son of 
God, by the atonement that has .been made for sinners. As 
I have told you before, you cannot release yourself any more 
than the man in prison ; you must be released. It is by the 
grace of God to the human family. Before they were brought 
into existence God could look through the vista of time and 
see all things accomplished. He could look and see what 
men would do. He saw that man would fall, and he saw 
that, they could not take themselves from the curse of the 
law. It was a perfect law, and nobody but a perfect being 
<jould fill it. And when we fell under the curse of the law 



348 DEBATE ON 

Jesus made the atoning sacrifice. None but him could have 
done it, and the ordinance of high heaven was to preach the 
gospel to every creature. Paul says, " I am not ashamed of 
the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to every one 
that believeth, to the Jew as also to the Greek.^ 

I hope, my friends, you will be patient with me, for I am 
very hoarse. We will have some mourners here before we 
leave. I have some mourners' benches here now, and I have 
some Old Baptist mourners here, and some of them are on 
the ground, but I reckon they will not fall off that mourners' 
bench. 

Now, says Paul, " For therein is the righteousness of God 
revealed from faith to faith ; as it is written, the just shall 
live by faith. 

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven agaiust 
all ungodliness, and unrighteousness of men, who hold the 
truth in unrighteousness. 

" Because that which may be known of God, is manifest in 
them ', for God hath shewed it unto them. 

" For the invisible things of him from the creation of the 
world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that 
are made, even his eternal power and Godhead ; so that they 
are without excuse." Now, I tell you that the sinner will 
never come up and plead that he had not a chance for salva- 
tion. He cannot come up and say, " God, why did you send 
me to hell !" He will not do that. It is one of the unalter- 
able decrees of God that he gave to every man a chance for 
his life. Now, listen to what follows : " Because that, when 
they knew God, they glorified him not as God." That is the 
way of the sinner exactly. There is not an ungodly man 
before me that does not know it. ''Neither were thankful^ 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 349 

but became vaiu in their iaiaginations, and their foolish heart 
was darkened. 

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools: 

"And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an 
image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four- 
footed beasts, and creeping things. 

" Wherefore God also gave them up to uucleanness, through 
the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their own bodies be- 
tween themselves : 

"Who changed the truth of God into a lie." Who did 
this ? The very sinners. And for this reason God gave them 
up to uucleanness, and for no other reason was it done. , 

"And worshiped and served the creature more than the 
Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." 

" For this cause God gave them up to vile affections. For 
even their women did change the natural use into that which 
is against nature : 

"And likewise the men, leaving the natural use of the 
woman, burned in their lust one toward another j men with 
men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in them- 
selves that recompense of their error which was meet. 

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their 
knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind." 

They did not like to retain the knowledge of God in their 
minds, and God gave them over to a reprobate mind. 

Here the Apostle denounces them for faults and crimes 
just as sinners are guilty of at the present day. The sinner 
does not like to.be in the company of christian men. Hell 
has a harsh sound in their ears. They do not like the name 
of the devil; they do not like the name of eternity. These 
words have a harsh sound in their ears. They do not like to 



350 DEBATE ON 

contemplate it. They put it as far away from tbem as they 
can. They know there is a God that made all things. They 
know there is a God that has promised rewards and punish- 
ments; and God punishes those who disobey his laws, and 
rewards those who obey it. And they know that every 
promise of God must be accomplished and fulfilled. And I 
tell you, if any of you are lost to-day it is because you retain 
not the knowledge of God in your minds; you are an im- 
moral being, and you must die, and at the last day your 
spirits will be ushered into the divine presence of God, 
whether you are prepared or unprepared. And therefore, 
says* the Apostle, " How shall we escape if we neglect so 
great salvation ?" And so far as the atonement is concerned, 
I know that the sinner had nothing to do with it. That is 
what I told brother Hardy; as far as the unconditional 
theory is concerned, I know the atonement was made in the 
divine mind long before any moral being was made; and in 
this sense it must be unconditional. But God requires faith 
in the atoning blood of his Son. And I know that faith im- 
plies repentance, and whenever it is asked, ^'Do you believe 
in the Lord Jesus Christ?" that implies repentance. The 
sinners say these things ; they believe in the reality of the 
religion of the Lord Jesus Christ, they believe in a God, they 
believe in eternity, they believe they will die, but they go on 
regardless of these things; nevertheless, you cannot find a 
man in the world that intends to go to hell. You may talk 
about these things to him, and he tells you that he would be 
religious if God would put it in his power, when the truth is 
he does not like to retain the knowledge of God in his mind» 
He does not seek him. He wants to steer clear of him» 
And I know then that he cannot come of his own accord. 



CHUBCH IDENTITY. 351 

We have gone so far in our sins that we cannot return of our 
own accord. It is necessary for Jesus to bring us, and this 
atonement was made for the sinner, and he comes to God and 
seeks his favor. 

Why, I believe I would get all of these Old Baptists into 
the church in a short time if I had tinie enough. They left 
our church forty-eight years ago, and they have been out of 
it ever since. 

[The Moderator annonDced that the speaker's time had expired,], 



ELDEE HAEDY SAID: 



Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen : The 
brother has asked me several times in regard to damnation. 
He wants me to tell him something about damnation. Now^ 
I will answer that in this way, that Jesus Christ never called 
on me or sent me out to preach damnation, but to preach 
him and him crucified. Mr. Wallace turned to me and said 
that I never gave a dollar in my life for missionary purposes^ 
or anything of that sort. Now, how does he know that? I 
know that I have, and I think I ought to best know what I 
have done. 

Mr. Wallace — Then what do you oppose it for? 

Mr. Hardy — Then he comes out in his last speech with the 
quotation, " What must we do to be saved?" I have been 
long listening here to know what he says the sinner has to 
do to be saved, but he has failed to tell us until his last 
speech. I am glad that he came out at last and told us what 



352 DEBATE ON 

we had to do. He refers to tlie young maa that came to 
Christ and asked the question, "What must I do to be 
saved!" Why, Jesus told him, and the young man replied, 
"All these have I observed from my youth," and he wanted 
to know what he yet lacked. Jesus said, '"Go sell all that 
thou hast and give it to the poor, and thou shalt have a treas- 
ure in heaven." !N'ow, that is what Jesus said was the requisite 
to salvation — to sell all that we have and give it to the poor. 
Eight here I want to know if my brother Wallace has ever 
done that. If that is the plan of salvation, I want to know 
how you are to get to heaven unless you comply with that 
requirement ? Xow, if there is no objection, I would like to 
make a quotation that I have so far omitted in reply to what 
my brother has said. He has already quoted a portion of it 
in his last speech, and if the Moderators will permit it I will 
also refer to and quote from it. 

[The Moderators decided that according to the rules it 
would be improper to allow the speaker to make the quota- 
tion.] 

Elder Hardy — Very well. It is not my purpose to stand 
before this congregation half an hour. This is my last half 
hour in this debate, and then the discussion will be left to 
the public, to read and decide for themselves. They will then 
know what I have said and what Mr. Wallace has said. It 
is not worth while for me to recapitulate what he has done, 
or to state what he has not done. Neither is it worth while 
for me to say what I have done or what I have failed to do. 
As I have said, the people will have an opportunity of read- 
ing and judging for themselves. I want to remark here that 
I am glad that this discussion has gone off in peace and 
quiet, and that the people who are sitting here to-day are 



CHURCH IDENTITY. 353 

sitting in barmony and peace. Now, so far as I am con- 
cerned, I desire to say that I have nothing at all against 
the Missionary Baptists individually, so far as they them- 
selves are concerned. They know I do not believe their 
doctrine, but I know and believe that there are many good 
Missionary Baptists that I esteem as highly as any people in 
the world, and 1 believe that some of them are good christian 
men ; men that would favor me just as quick as any person 
under heaven would, and just as readily as they would favor 
anybody else. True, we are divided in regard to religious 
matters, but that does not prevent me from saying that they 
are as good neighbors and as conscientious men as could be 
desired. Nevertheless, when I come to defend the cause of 
my heavenly Master I want it distinctly understood that I 
have no compromise to make with any person under heaven. 
I stand right up for what I believe to be the truth in Christ 
I have but a few more remarks to make, and then this dis- 
cussion will close, so far as I am concerned. I want to tell 
this people that I have no idea we will ever meet again on 
this side of eternity. I know my nature is such that if I had 
the power I would save every sinner under God Almighty's 
sun ; but I have not the power, and consequently I must tell 
these people that Jesus Christ is the only Savior that can 
save the poor, lost, dying sinners. And if we are permitted 
to enter into the paradise of God, let me tell yon it will be on 
the doctrine that I have preached unto you through this dis- 
cussion — salvation by grace alone and none other. Now, I 
want to bid these people a last farewell. I hope to meet 
them all up yonder in the better world. So far as this dis- 
cussion is concerned, I will repeat what has been said on 
23 



354 DEBATE ON 

several occasions already, that it will be published iu book 
form, and that the pages will go out to the world for its 
judgment between usj and after I am dead and gone, many 
of the people here will be left to read them, and my voice will 
be heard through these pages, though I am no more on earth. 
I want the people to know that it was the last word I spoke 
here, that my dependence is placed wholly in the Lord Jesus 
Christ, and if I am ever permitted to enter into the paradise 
of God, I know that it is not by anything I have done — not 
by anything I ever can do — but it is by the power and by 
the grace of God alone. And that is the only system I know 
of ^ that is the one thing that will reach the case of the hu- 
man family in every condition. I believe that every charac- 
ter here to-day that will be permitted to enter the paradise 
of God will go there by this power, and by none other. De- 
pend on the Lord Jesus Christ ,• it is his word, and his word 
alone J take the word of God alone. Try to do everything 
that Jesus has commanded, and then I hope we will be per- 
mitted to live up yonder in the paradise of God, and there to 
dwell in the favor of God, and join the angels in the world 
above in singing the praises of the great almighty God. And 
unto that great name be glory and dominion for ever and 
ever. Amen. 



EEY. MR. WALLACE SAID: 

Gentlemen Moderators, Ladies and; Gentlemen: Why, 
the brother hardly gave me time to rest. I have only a few 
more quotations to make, simply to enlarge on what I have 
already said. Of course this is regarded as a summary, 
but I am not going to sum up everything that has been said. 
I do not intend to do that from the fact that this discussion 
is to come out in book form. But as I was speaking of mis- 
sionary operations, and I presented to you where Christ made 
the great church a missionary body, and in his churcj? at 
Jerusalem he sent out missionaries. Now, 2d Corinthians 
viii. 18, you will find where the churches combined. " We 
have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel 
throughout all the churches ; 

" (19) And not that only, but who was also chosen of the 
churches to travel with us with this grace, which is adminis- 
tered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of 
your ready mind." 

[It was here objected to the speaker's making any quota- 
tions, as a violation of the rules.] 

Mr. Wallace maintained that he had a right to enlarge on 
anything that he had already presented. If it were under 
the matter not admitted I would have no right to do it. 
Brother Worlds knows something about these rules, and he 
ought to know. 

Mr. Worlds— There is no right to enlarge at all. 

Mr. Wallace— I will leave it to the Moderators. 



356 DEBATE ON 

The Moderators announced it as tlieir opinion that aacb 
enlargement would be out of order. 

Mr. Wallace — Well, then let it go. I have them anj^how, 
and it makes no difference really. I know they are burning 
under this, and I don't need to make any enlargement j I 
assure you of that. liTow, there has been a large attendance 
here ever since this discussion commenced, and a deep inter- 
est has been taken in this subject by the people, and they 
are well aware of the fact of which is right or who has gotten 
the best of this discussion. I will leave it to them. The 
people will not forget that brother Hardy opposes Bible so- 
cieties, and that while he opposes missionary operations he 
claims that he gives towards them. Mr. Hardy has been 
fighting missionary operations all the time j he says he be- 
liev'es in the Bible plan, but he has so far failed to present 
his Bible plan. I have called upon him to do it time and 
again. And there are numbers of the passages of Scriptures 
that he has not answered, and now I do not propose to stand 
before this people to recapitulate what has been done j I am 
willing to leave it to you. 

But, in concluding, let me tell you Mr. Hardy's plan will 
never bring hope or comfort. I tell you that man makes him- 
self a sinner j God never made man a sinner. Man is God's 
workmanship, and he never made anything but what was 
good. Man made himself a sinner ; God never did. God 
did not make the devil, the devil made himself a devil, as 
man makes himself a sinner. I tell you man is responsible 
for himself, and let me warn you to beware of this doctrine 
of these Antimissionaries. O, it is a pleasing doctrine, to be 
sure } it stifles the conscience of the sinner. I know the time 
when I lived under that doctrine j when the people told me 



CHUECH IDENTITY. 357 

mot to mind about my salvation, that God would bring me in 
liis own good time, that I could do nothing for myself, but 
must wait until God brought me. And so it is that thou- 
sands and thousands of them have gone down to their graves 
without the hope of eternal life. I have known thousands of 
them going down to their graves, leaving no evidence that 
they had peace in their souls, and let me tell you, my dear 
friends, if you are lost you will have no one to charge with it 
but yourself. You will come up before your God with a 
guilty conscience, with your heads hanging down, with your 
knees smiting together, and damnation written on your brow. 
I beseech you be warned by me for the last time that I will 
address you. 

Let me impress on you that nothing short of repent- 
ance of your sins and faith in the atonement that God 
lias made; the mediation of Christ; reliance on what Jesus 
has done; and going to him as guilty and unworthy sinners, 
not pleading anything you have done, but pleading the satis- 
faction of the crucified Eedeemer, that the Son of God has 
come down and made atonement for you and all sinners — 
nothing but that will save you. You are under the law of 
unbelief, and so long as you remain under the law of unbe- 
lief, condemnation is written on your brow. I tell you 
nothing but unbelief will sink you under the curse of God. 
Let me warn you for the last time of your sins, and to pray 
to God to help you to come to him, and if you do so let me 
tell you he will not reject you^ for it is said when the sinner 
comes God .will abundantly pardon. Mercy is the divine 
attribute of God. God is a merciful God; he is a God of 
love. This is his divine attribute, and he is ready to admin- 
ister this mercy and love to repentant sinners to-day as ever, 



358 DEBATE ON 

even to the uttermost ends of the earth; anywhere yon may 
be. You may be in prison, you may be in heathen lands,, 
you may be in the battle field, but wherever you may be^ 
when you come to Christ and appeal to him he will not turn 
you away. Nay, he has invited you to come. He has said 
to the sinner, '' Come to the water of life and drink freely ; 
whosoever will may come and take of the water of life 
freely." 

Now, before we close, I want to say this, as far as this dis- 
cussion is concerned I know it has been heated at timeS; but 
so far as I am concerned it has been perfectly friendly. I 
know my brother Hardy has nothing in his mind of feeling 
against me for anything I have said, and if he has I ask his 
forgiveness for it here before you all. And I ask him to show 
this people that we can part after this debate in peace and 
love as christians, notwithstanding we have been fighting 
one another for five days. Let us show to all the world that 
we can lay down our prejudices and embrace each other in 
brotherly love. And while I ask my brother to shake hands 
with me now, I will ask of the brethren to sing that beautiful 
and glorious song, ^' Amazing grace, how sweet the sound." 

[The congregation sang the hymn, " Amazing grace, how 
sweet the sound," accompanied with a general hand-shaking 
and congratulation, and then dispersed.) 



I HEREBY certify that the foregoing is a full, true and correct trans- 
cript of the debate that took place at the time stated therein, between the 
Rev. Mr. Wallace, representing what are known as the Missionary Bap- 
tists, and Elder Hardy, representing what are known as the Old Baptists, 
at Mount Moriah, in the County of Livingston, State of Kentucky ; and 1 
further certify that neither party to the debate, nor any one interested in 
it, has seen or examined this transcript before it went 'into the hands of 
the publisher. 

SIMEON Mcpherson, stenographer. 



ERRATA. 

Page 11, line 1 from top, for to any other race of men, read entire race of 

men. 
Page 12, line 16 from top, for that he has redeemed every nation, Jcindred and 

tongue, read that he has redeemed ns to God hy thy hlood out of every Jcin- 
dred, and tongue, and people, and nation. 
Page 17, line 10 from top, for do, read do not. 
Page 18, lines 3 and 5 from bottom, for prove, read disprove. 
Page 42, reject history from the word ^?ari in line 5 from top, to the word 

Kovatian in line 6 from bottom of page 43. 
Page 46, line 5 from top, for " 1680," read " 1806." 
Page 46, line 9 from bottom, for "200," read "204." 
Page 47, line 4 from top, for " 886," read " 186." 
Page 55, line 16 from top, for might, read might not. 
Page 65, line 2 from bottom, for give the honest, read apply the wrong. 
Page 76, line 8 from top, for "J.854," read " 1824." 
Page 76, line 3 from bottom, for Sjnrit says to have, read the fruit of the 

Spirit is. 
Page 77, line 1 from top, for Society, read Society in America. 
Page 79, line 10 from top, for one clause, read ffth article. Note. — Said 

article should have been inserted, but it was not. See it in Jones, 

page 325. 
Page 80, line 6 from bottom, for first Baptists, read first Separate Baptists. 
Reject history from the word forever in line 4 from bottom of page 91, to 

the word day in line 13 from bottom of page 93. 
Page 101, line 9 from top, for " 1702," read " 1792." 
Page 103, line 14 from bottom, for " 1701," read " 1707." 
Page 116, line 1 from bottom, for brethren, read persons. 
Page 120, line 14 from top, for in the world, read among. 
Page 120, line 14 from top, for division, read Reformation, 
Page 122, line 6 from bottom, for man, read mar. 



360 EERATA. 

Page 125, line 7 from bottom, for America, read Arminian. 

Page 165, line 8 from top, for did not, read did. 

Page 169, line 14 from bottom, for " 1801,'' read '•' 1811.'' 

Page 192, line 11 from top, for is, read is not. 

Page 206, line 14 from bottom, for might, read will not. 

Page 207, line 3 from top, for were not, read were. 

Page 244, line 7 from top, for never, read ever. 

Page 258, line 12 from top, for We are not so drunk as you are, read These 

are not drunlien, as ye sup_pose. 
Page 297, line 13 from top, for ivriters Inew, read readers Inoic. 
Page 297, line 15 from top, for were, read were not. 
Page 300, line 8 from top, for an, read no. 
Page 315, line 4 from top, for has, read has not. 
Page 315, line 6 from top, for whole, read oJd. ■ 
Page 315, line 12 from bottom, reject and heathen. 
Page 316, line 13 from bottom, for know, read give. 



[Note. — The abore errors are according to copy, and due to the care- 
lessness of the stenographer, and not to the printer.— Publishjee.] 






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